A little bit of an exaggerated blanket statement there, from the Hubb's favourite banker...

Although that tosh was written a couple of weeks ago, I think it's fair to respond late, seeing as how nobody else has.


I think Mr Colebatch obviously spent too much time at school (Harrow? Eton?) studying economics, and not enough time studying history. I suspect the wealth of rich western states might in fact have something to do with the last 1000 years or so of history, and in particular from the industrial revolution onwards. That industrial development wouldn't have been possible without banking and stock markets, but that hardly equates to bankers being the creators of our wealth, rather than facilitators.

We need a banking system without a doubt, but I don't see why that system couldn't work perfectly well without an old boys club at the helm ensuring that they and all their toffee-nosed chums stuff their pockets to bursting point. That's what this recession is about, they've reached the bursting point, too much 'wealth' is in the hands of too few and they can't spend it fast enough to keep the economy as a whole ticking.


The 'average man on the street' isn't interested in politics really, as long as he can go down the pub on friday night and shag his missus once a week. That's why the system will continue as it does, not because it 'should' or because it works so perfectly as Mr Colebatch seems to think. The bankers aren't interested in reasons or consequences, only how much money they're stuffing into their already bulging pockets, and I don't think that's about to change any time soon. Trebles all round for Giles, Tarquin, and of course Walter!

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UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

What makes you think I am a banker. I have been on a motorcycle for the last 4 years. You?

Oh ... just missed. Government run fee free state schools in Australia.. ... but hey, thats close Nath! Only 10,000 miles away and totally opposite philosophy ... but good guess .... really close.

History? Try me. My favourite subject. :

Do say hi to Eva from me.

When did I say it works perfectly.? Show me that quote?

Your not making this up as you go are you Nath?

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Woops, I made a little mistake there. I described Colebatch as a banker, but it seems I the word I was actually looking for was... Wanker?

Go back to drinking champagne with Giles and Tarquin and stop being a troll

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UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

ok so now you are really are making it up as you go ...

False quotes? Really? Is that really your response? Tell me you are kidding ...

You didnt expect a free shot did you Nath? You didnt expect to waltz in, throw a molotov cocktail at me and not expect to get some stick back, right? You can take it as well as give it ??

Or not?


OK I give up mate.

Besides ... Austin, Chas and Millie want some more caviar. Someone has to call the bloody butler you know.

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Nath has been throwing the W word around for a while now, mainly directed toward those who ride BMWs, so there's a double hit!

I apologise for tonight; I just lost about a half hour of fat finger typing and it is way too late to start again tonight.
But there is good discussion herein, with a spirited argument in the bar.

I will return to quote, or mis-quote, Arnie.

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Dave

Nath,

Are you high, posting this drivel?

Colebatch can be a knob sometimes - like we all can - but I think his discussion on this topic has been pretty informed (ex-banker, perhaps, Walter?) and accurate about the way things are - not necessarily the way we think things ought to be.....

I don't like banks as I don't like the way they do business and I don't like bankers, of the ones that I have met, as they were snide, arrogant and generally thoroughly disingenuous people. But I haven't met all of them and some might be OK. Being able to keep an open mind is one of the biggest lessons I've learned from traveling over the years - you should try it.

Ah, I see you've met Colebatch as well then? To be honest I didn't know what disingenuous meant and had to check, (no Harrow schooling for me), but that sounds about right.

I haven't time to write a trolling response as before I go to bed I should give thanks to the bankers for to whom I owe my high standard of living.

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UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

Bloody hell didn't this thread degenerate.

I'm going to stick up for Walter here as I have actually met the man, seems like a good guy, helped me out a lot with heaps of info when I decided to ride across central asia and Russia. Provides lots of advice to others trying to the same thing, including many informed posts in the North Asia section of the HUBB and I know he happily will sit down with someone to assist with route planning.

Is he self-assured and confident - I would say yes, some may describe that as arrogant, in that context I would take that as complement.

As for banks and bankers generally, they have an important role to play in the economy, in recent times they may have made some foolish decisions and in some parts behaved corruptly show me any group of organisations that this hasn't happened to from time to time.

I used to work in the banking industry (support roles) I have seen guys who behaved like punters at a racetrack in the tech boom, I have also seen people so risk adverse that they wouldn't jay walk. Classifying all bankers is at the best foolish, in society there is no us and them, just us.

I've nothing to add regarding Colebatch's assistance, patience, indulgence of the curious re: all things North Asia.

But the attacks on bankers or his points are . . . hilarious.

Bankers only facilitate the "creators of wealth" ? Really. Tell that to a smart kid/entrepreneur in Pakistan or Russia. They're effectively locked out of "the game" because they can't access capital and when they can . . . it's often from abroad. Somebody in northern California's Silicon Valley - it's pretty easy. At some point "the idea" and "the money to fund it" are rather "chicken and egg" debates.

The "old boys network" ? If one's watched alot of 30's movies, say, 'It's a Wonderful Life" so such - sure. But the days of JP Morgan strutting down or being called down to the White House or 10 Downing are LONG OVER. Today, a man sits inside of an organization because he could deliver numbers (revenue & profit). The "old boys network" was blown up in the US in the early 80's by deregulation and mergers.

Now . . . on the other hand, the percentage of global output due to financial services in the past decade has tripled from 4% to 12%. That seems rather unlikely without a bit of "gaming".

The capital markets USED to be about raising cash for new investments or expanding product lines or productivity. Clearly, with any view into them . . . that's no longer the focus.

Where do bankers fall into it ? Well, there's "bankers" and there's bankers. Retail bankers ? Commercial bankers ? Investment bankers ? There's a trajectory there, mathematically, from arithmetic to . . . stochastic calculus.

A historical view of (retail) bank profits neatly tracks GDP. That tends not to make retail bankers look too clever but also serves to clear them of all the ranting charges. As Walter says . . . central bankers set monetary policy (interest rates) and the outflows of lending start there. (Another reason that banks are currently reluctant to lend is that they're holding lots of "assets", like mortgages on homes which are NOT worth the valuation of the mortgages . . . as that problem has worsened it endangers a banks capitol reserve ratios - welcome to a nasty deflationary spiral - all a result of an asset bubble a la Japan of the 80's.)

In the last 30 years the game has been a bit more complicated by China's rise and the prolific US T-bill buying of south, southeast and north Asia. Holding ALOT of someone else's debt doesn't have much value, per se. That purchased debt permitted the west to have large current account deficits by exporting jobs and importing finished goods.

This led to the classic investment bubble under whose "pop" we now live. The "cash" flowed to the East, the debt west. Those currency accumulations in the east came back to the west looking for better returns than US T-bills. THAT is the crux of the bubble - relatively fixed numbers of assets and a large increase in the amount of cash chasing them - asset bubble. (We've seen one of these, in one form or another about every 75 years since the Tulip Craze. 75 years must be enough time for the old men to die out and not be around to warn the "kids" that . . . we've seen this movie before.)

What did retail bankers have to do with this ? Almost NOTHING. They were well downstream and simply responding to regulatory and macro-economic forces.

Commercial bankers ? Similarly free of direct implication.

Investment bankers . . . that's more interesting. Small in size (Goldman Sachs makes a large fraction of the profit of HSBC but has 1/10th the number of employees) but very large in impact and reach. Investment bankers were smart enough to react to the changing conditions very fast. If some prefer the word "manipulate", so be it.

It's clear since the de-regulation of banks in the US which started with Reagan the old rules and perspectives changed. The monetization of everything (at least in the US, but coming to a country near you, soon) makes a profit the key goal (consider US health care - not the wellness of it's clients but the profit of it's service providers . . .). The idea, nay holy grail, of "shareholder value" has subsumed all else.

Does that need reform ? Depends if you think the current system creates wealth or manipulates it and whether that matters. In the 21st century 40% of Ivy League graduates moved on to Wall St jobs. Is that the fault of bankers or is it a deeper societal issue ?

But you can't overlook the rise of Asia's cash infusions (too much savings) or the West's profligate spending. You can't blame a banker for either.

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Orange, it's the new black.

Never met the guy and would certainly not apply those or any other demeaning words to him unless I had and knew him and I thought they applied, which they might not, as I don't know him - get the idea? The only things I can about him is he writes a damn good ride report, can't spell very well and occasionally suffers SOH failure after a long day in the saddle.

Never went to Harrow - I'm a grammar school boy if you must know.

Trolling is for puerile tossers - why don't you look those two up?

The other thing I don't get with bank bashing, is some how it okay for every other person and business to make money, but not banks?

Why not?

Want not for profit banking? Join a credit union.

I thought about deleting your post, quoted above, because of it's offensive nature. I haven't because Walter is able to counter your (chemically induced?) rantings in an appropriate way. Your post also helps to show how measured and mature your utterances are(n't).

I've met Walter. I think he's a good bloke. Have you? Please also read all the good and current information he submits here and on ADVrider. I sent him a couple of PMs the other day regarding a Siberian question I had. He replied virtually by return. Excellent, in my book.

How are you helping to make the (HUBB) world a better place?




Please don't EVER misquote people. Thanks.

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TBS.com

For those who are still hanging in there and considering the morality and ethics of banking, the problem may go back as far as 1545:-
Usury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Within the UK it has been reported that Islamic banks are growing in number.
I don't see any Christian banks on the high streets, to date.

Incidentally, there is a brief reference at the end of that wiki article to micro-financing.

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Dave

. . . is reasonably large and growing.

HSBC's Amanah has been around for some time.

"Christian" lending is somewhat meaningless as there are no prohibitions on lending in the New Testament.

However, if you take Shakespeare seriously . . . "neither a borrower nor a lender be" carry on before credit and sophisticated finance and . . . enjoy the 15th century. "More gruel, Master."

Banks and bankers will follow the money . . .

Now as for the potential pitfalls and perils of fiat money, or the possible built-in instabilities of capitalism . . . economists continue to debate those and have for at least 150 years.

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Orange, it's the new black.

Well, again relating to the UK, it is pretty much a non-Christian, secular society nowadays and I was merely pointing out one important origin of western methods of finance, which included Christian banning of the payment of interest.
It is very likely that such Usury principles relate to the old testament which contains the foundations of Islam, Judism and Christianity, hence their common approach to their historic principles of lending.
Lets see what the new Archbishop of Canterbury has to say about this when he is in place later this year (he is an ex-business man).

"Banks and bankers will follow the money" . . . and, therefore, require a lot of regulation in order to bend them to the greater good rather than their own selfish, short term interests.

Through history, no fiat currency has survived; the latest example to test us is the Euro which now demands the full political integration of those countries which are members of that currency. We shall see how that pans out, but I suspect it will all end in tears.
Interestingly, to me anyway, some towns and cities in the UK have introduced local currencies for use in local commerce; arguably a return to the middle ages.
Bristol Pound - Our City. Our Money

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Dave