Hi all,

After reading a lot of post where it is commonly mentioned that someone had to bribe someone to do something, I wanted to say my thoughts about this...

I (we) have travelled quite a bit and NEVER EVER bribed anyone to get something done.

Please, before continuing reading, I don't want to start a war, I don't want this thread to become an issue, to have impolite or accusative posts etc. I want to stress something that makes me sad when I get confronted to this issue (by reading about it) and I just hope that I am not the only one here.

Honestly, I get angry and disappointed when I read that people (especially motorcyclist!!!) offered money to the police, customs officer or whoever was in an official capacity to get something done or not done.

Get some selfrespect and try to get out of it without paying if the person is clearly after money. Now I know that some will say "there was no other way" but I'm pretty sure that in 99% of the cases there was but you just didn't know or wanted to see another way.

I won't even tell my tricks to get out of it, but the one I heard from a fellow traveller a few weeks ago that i really really liked; this is the story in short:

He gets pulled over, the policeman want money for whatever reason and shows him the "international sign" for 'give me money' behind the bikers license so the cop's boss can't see it. The biker pretends he doesn't know what the cop wants and after a few awkward minutes he just takes his helmet off, goes to a bench, takes out his cigarettes and lit ones up still pretending not to understand what the cop wants. They both knew exactly what was going on so it was just the game of who would win.
Since you're traveling you have more time than the cop who's shift will end in X hours, so play this out like he did. After another 5 minutes the boss came to see what was going on, asked the cop what the problem was and he said that there wasn't, they were just smoking a cigarette together. He finished his cig, gave one to both cops and they even warned him where the next speedtrap was. Bribe? Two cigarettes and the information on how not to get fined 30k's further down the road... good deal I would think.

What I want to explain with this, is that if he would have given the money, he would have get fined again later on and the next in line coming that way (maybe you?) would also have to pay, and so on.

Now I am not foolish enough to know that we won't solve all the bribing problems around the world, but it would make me a lot happier if at least I could read reports of people like him getting out of it more times than reading questions about where you'll need to pay a bribe etc. As stated, up to this day I have never ever paid a bribe and I don't think I will ever. It would just be better if people tried harder not to pay instead of expecting to pay and just argue about the amount. I think that a big part is in your attitude how to resolve the 'problem' with the bribing agent, they'll just try as you're a rich foreigner in their eyes.

I can give a lot of examples where I (we) got pulled over etc but I think the best way was to use someone else's story (not to be selfish...) to illustrate that it can be done, if you just want to try it instead of immediately taking your cash out to solve the "problem". Show some balls, if you are SURE that you didn't do anything wrong of course...

(ps; I'm now traveling again and won't have internet for a few days probably, but be sure I will look at this once I can again!)

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Admirable stuff and I wouldn't argue with any of that personally.

However, it has to be borne in mind that in some parts of the world there is a culture of "bakhshee" - it is not seen to be a bribe as such, but more the way that everyone gets by in what may be a difficult economic situation.
Within such cultural conditions, the one-off situation of crossing a border or dealing with a speed trap is just that - "one off" and no big deal in the bigger scheme of things.

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Dave

You say this, and yet below...

You don't want to have impolite or accusative posts and yet you "get angry" when you hear about something you don't like, tell people to "get selfrespect", and how sure you are that 99% of the time someone just wanted to pay a bribe.

Honestly--not to be impolite or accusative--I find your post very patronizing.

I'm really glad that you never ever pay bribes during your various journeys through exotic places, good for you. But I've got plenty of self-respect, good judgment, balls, and experience, and will do what I consider appropriate at the time, regardless of whether you get angry or disappointed or whatever.

Have a nice trip.

I´ve lived in Mexico City for 37 years. One thing is going through a place as a tourist and another is living in a corrupt country. I very rarely get stopped on my bike but it happens sometimes. I can normally get away with whatever I have done by talking and explaining my way out of it. Once in a while that is not possible and I may get a ticket or end up giving a bribe. I always feel terrible when bribing someone but reality is that it is a way of life.
Around 20 years ago I was stopped because my plate was out of date. I explained that I had several bikes and had spent many days trying to get plates for all of them. I then said that if the cop could help me get the plate that would be great as I had run out of patience and given up. He said he had to impound the bike. I said that was fine but that I wouldn't give him any money. I thought he would let me go but we ended up at the pound. Twice on the way he asked me if I had changed my mind. I then spent 2 days getting a plate for the bike and paying fines and finally a bribe. All in all it cost me 10 times as much plus all the extra time. After that I decided that it is very difficult to beat a system that is so well set up.
In the cases where I have bribed someone I did something which I think is true in 99% of the cases. Why should you be allowed to get away with paying nothing like the case of your friend? Doesn't he feel bad about breaking the law?
I still don´t like it but it is how things are. It´s a bit like paying for a TV lincence in the UK, totally stupid but it´s the way things are.

Motoreiter; I don't think you got my message this time my friend... It looks like you took this one personal and this I find strange.
I don't want to have people respond to specific cases like 'i wouldn't have bribed in that case' etc.
I think it is a shame that some people (most of the time us, EU citizens) think it is normal to bribe or to suggest or to "automatically" offer a bribe without trying not to. That's what I mean. Two weeks ago we saw this and it made me angry, yes, in real not on a forum. We got pulled over, (for no reason) and after we just negotiated that there was nothing wrong and that the cop didn't had any legal basis to inflict us a "fine" another biker stopped also (it was a checkpoint) and just asked the cop how much he wanted... Yes this makes me wonder and yes I think that he could have been more tactful at least...
The guy is no way a HU member... I'm sure of that...
So I am not really sure why you seem to take this one so harshly?

I agree, but I wasn't especially reflecting on those areas, maybe I had to be more clear in my original post, but I wanted to generalize without mentioning countries or specific regions to avoid a 'yes-no' possible debate.

My post is a reflection on the maybe limited places I have been, sorry, I haven't been to Mexico yet and I haven't been to black Africa, so I can't possibly say anything about those places but I just think that some of the tourists are bribing to easely. That's it.

Of course it is different when you live in a corrupt or difficult system, I can try to understand that. My idea/post is about when you are traveling and doing nothing wrong and doing it all how it should be done.

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Sorry if I came across as harsh, but it is one thing not to pay a bribe in the situation described above, which I agree is stupid and cowardly, and quite another to say that one should never ever pay a bribe, for the reasons well described by garydymond. I have lived in Moscow for many years and these days am very rarely asked for a bribe, especially if I haven't done something wrong. If I am asked for a bribe in those cases I don't pay, because usually I just laugh and tell them "I don't think so" and that's it.

Let me give you a story from many years ago, however. One night many years ago I was coming back to Moscow from out of town, and had not been drinking. I was pulled over for speeding (in an unmarked construction zone...) and the cop said he thought I'd been drinking and that I had to come with him to a rural medical clinic to have a blood test. Besides the couple of hours that it would have cost me (late at night), I was rather concerned about the potential for unsanitary needles, etc. at this rural clinic and had absolutely no intention of having my arm stuck with a dirty needle. So after about half hour of arguing with this ***** without him giving an inch, I paid him some money. I was absolutely furious--not ashamed--but there you have it. But that is one of only very very few times that has happened during ten years of living in Russia.

So if you are saying it is stupid to pay a bribe just because someone asks for one, I totally agree. If you are saying you should never pay a bribe, under any circumstances, that's very commendable, but very difficult if you are living in a place like Russia.

There used to be a licence required for car radios in Belgium; when I lived there back in the 90s no one paid it; even though everyone knew that new cars were delivered as standard with radios fitted, it was just denied to the tax people that the new car actually had a radio.
Pedal bikes also had a tax disc: my boss let me use his and it had this little metal plate thing attached - he was one of those few who had paid for his pedal cycle to be legal on the road.

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Dave

Sometimes bribing is essential to get things done which you usuarly cant do like importing a bike into Peru wich is not registered on your own name. No cirarett will help you there but $10 "pa tu mujer" will do the job

http://reisemotorrad.eu/?report=en_suedamerika

Of corse i dont waste money for stupid police man but i would love to be able to bribe in Europa too...the official fines are just too high. Bribes can make everything possible and turn Earth to Paradise

Well I generally agree that offering to pay bribes is stupid and pretending to not to understand is a great idea that works a lot of the time.

However sometimes you inadvertently pay them also, I was pulled over in Kaz for speeding after trying the no understand routine unsuccessfully, the officer started to write out the ticket, about halfway through he indicated it would be 1000 tenge, which I gave him and when he gave me my license back I realised I had paid a bribe.

As for ta-rider are you f'ing kidding? One of the reasons westerners have the wealth to travel is that our countries (for the most part anyway) function properly.

That was pretty much my thought about the paradise on earth comment.
Anyone who has experienced living in a corrupt country knows that it is not what the citizens of that country want, but they have little or no choice if they wish to survive day-to-day and make a crust for themselves and their family.

Passing through, as a traveller/tourist/adventurer whatever, produces a much less intense experience of what corruption actually is.

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Dave

Spot on what I mean(t)!

There are cases/situations when one has to do what one has to do, but it's the almost "automatically" reflex that one 'ignorant' traveler could have that concerns me because he or she read about it that it is common practice.

Should have made this more clear in the original post (sorry, English is not my first language...)

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Corruption is part of the fabric of society in many, many countries of the world. For example in Bangkok at certain times of the month (connected to their pay cycle) the police will start a traffic blitz booking people for the smallest infraction. You get the choice of wasting time paying at some office or pay the cop directly which boosts his personal income for the month. Locals suffer the same as tourists.

Or you pay a few bucks to some low paid worker to facilitate your movement through a border or whatever. If you want to spend hours arguing with some official over what is usually spare change for a western traveller to feel superior to those that pay it, thats your prerogative.

If your in a country where baksheesh is part of the culture, smile, pay it, get on with your day. Or stay at home and watch Nat Geo on cable. Far less aggravating for you.

I've been subject to overt claims to be bribed twice, once in the UK by a traffic cop who had gone through my logbook and found that I had too many unsigned sheets due to being away on the Continent for three weeks. I refused and copped a fine.

The other occasion was when importing a vehicle into Australia and the paperwork had been delayed due to holidays by public servants. "My problem" could go away if I paid a public servant to do her job. From then on all phone calls were recorded - which in itself is illegal, but who is going to solicit a bribe knowing they are being recorded!! I never paid up and she made my life very difficult for about two weeks.

Its not just Third World countries that have bribes - it just gets far more expensive once you get into First World countries. How often nowadays do you see a politician or civil servant at a sporting event, holiday resort or "education tour" all paid for by a lobby group. If its good for the top of the tree its good at the bottom seems to be the message that's coming out now.

Interesting topic Seb .... I have a couple of thoughts on this that are quite a different point of view.

While I absolutely would not accept bribing a police officer in my own country, my view in other countries is totally related to the local culture. If it is a normal process there, then I do feel that its culturally arrogant to not play by the local cultural rules.

I used to go to a bar I liked in the Moscow, and used to tip very well. The tip was not to make the barman happy, it was because the bar was often very crowded, and if that barman saw me, he would serve me first at a crowded bar, cause he knew he would get a big tip if he did that. I am paying money to get something done more quickly.

Is that me not having self respect?

I was paying for priority service. I was paying to have the process of buying a drink in a crowded bar sped up.

Some people pay for priority boarding on Easyjet.

I am happy to pay to speed up the process if I get caught speeding in Russia or Ukraine or Kazakhstan or wherever. The full process, of having a full ticket written out, going to a bank, queueing to pay the fine is long, slow and economically inefficient (it wastes half a day of your travelling time). Paying half the fine to the policeman on the spot saves my time, saves the banks customers time(they dont have to queue behind a wall of speeding fine payers) and saves the state the money it would need to pay the police if that process wasnt normal.

At the end of the day thats all anything in the economy is. Your employer bribes you to come to work. You bribe a plumber to fix your broken pipes. You bribe him more if he can come more quickly, serving you first, and leaving his other customers who arent willing to pay a premium to wait.

I think you need to define exactly what you mean by bribery and what is specifically negative about it in a case by case basis.

I used to take clients out to nice restaurants so that their firm would deal with me and not a competitor. Investment banks take clients to the Monaco Grand Prix - it isnt cause they like them. Its cause they are trying to manipulate their choices by the application of money.

Corporate entertainment is bribery, pure and simple. You offer expensive gifts and services (but theoretically not money) to encourage an individual who works for another entity, to make that entity spend money with your entity. You are trying to affect that persons choice by means that have nothing to do with the quality or price of the product or service you are offering. - You are trying to affect the outcome, and what you are offering is personal enrichment. i.e. bribery.

Thats something that is a keystone of western business, yet is 100% bribery. Why is western style bribery acceptable and eastern style bribery not?

what concerns me in this story is no one seems to care whether or not the guy has broken the law. If he was pulled over by the police, its not for something or another. Its cause he was caught speeding, or he crossed a white line or some other breach of the traffic laws. Or possibly for no reason. But it is relevant. You actually implied he was pulled over for speeding. If he was pulled over cause he broke the law, and he made life difficult for the cop to get out of paying a fine (whether to the cop or to the state) then HE is the guy who has no morals in my book. If he was speeding, and he knew it, then he was just trying to weasel out of a penalty that he genuinely deserves. He broke the law ... AND he was caught doing it. Thats plain and simple. He broke the law and he was pulled over for it by local cops. Natural justice implies he owes someone somewhere a penalty. You can argue all you like about who and where, but him trying to get out of it is him trying to get out of a perfectly just and fair penalty, for being caught breaking the law.

I strongly disagree with the notion of western superiority. That because our police are less corrupt than in other parts of the world, then we can ignore local rules, local police and act as if we have impunity. I think thats cultural arrogance.

While we are on cultural arrogance, I think its important to recognise there is more than one culture in the world. I think its not credible to say one culture or another is inherently superior to others. We might do things differently in the west, but when we travel to these countries, we should accept the way things are done locally and not try to impose out culture. If you dont like eating dog meat, then there is no point going to Korea and complaining about it. If you are female and want to sunbathe topless, then dont go to Iran or the USA.

If you go to Russia / Ukraine / Kazakhstan etc, then I think you have to accept the system works a certain way. The speed traps are not there to catch foreigners. They are not biased against foreigners. A radar catches all people equally. They catch locals and they catch foreigners - equally. The locals pay the fines a certain way. In the back of the cop car. Its the system. Why do you think as a foreigner you dont have to? What makes a westerner immune to following the system? What makes a westerner able to speed, and think he doesnt have to pay fines, when the local have to when they get caught. Does the westerner think he is a superior human being? Above local laws? Above the local system?

I think its very easy to fall in to the habit of thinking "everyone should be like us". "Everyone should do things the way we do". I think its a dangerous way of thinking. And I think its culturally imperialist.

If certain countries are going to change the way they do things, its for THEM to change their system, from within. Its not for us to travel to other countries and feel that "this is the way I demand to be treated". You are in their country. You are not entitled to be treated as anything superior to how they treat locals. You are not special nor do you have more rights because you are a foreigner.

As for us, the travellers, I feel its for us to either accept their system as it is, or not go there.

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Well thats what they do in Germany too:

http://www.rundschau-online.de/aus-a...,23117630.html

There it a road strait and wide like a highway. Then they put up a sign 60 km/h and start charging people who are faster but you cant say "ok offiver here you get 10 bugs please dont make me loose my licence and with this my job too for not harming anybody"...in this situations i would love to bribe. The Police is not only a problem in poor countrys...