I think a round of applause is in order!

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Simon

London-Cape Town 2004-06
Buenos Aires-Vancouver 2008-10:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/fitzpatrick

Wow Fredsuleman, that pretty much sums it up. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Well as a USA citizen living in the US I can see both sides. I have a healthcare plan so it will do little for me.
But none of this has anything to do with can the tax base pay for it. We can but something will have to give. Maybe the top .01% can kick in there taxes insted of forming a tax free company out side of the US. If not gust sizes their assets try them for treason, hang them out side congress and the white house it will help idea across I think. (Halliburton and others)

The USA people have been handed a 2$ trillion IOU but you pay it slap in the face by both ruling parties. I think a NHS run a bit less than that and I know be far more usefull to all the people than some useless war. 2 trillion and all I get out of it is more taxes. Stuff that! Tell you what you like that plan you pay it the IRS will love you long time.

Yes I know that the people that do not plan and do nothing are a drain on the hard working and people that plan of the USA but there nothing when you look at the people at the top. A Fing war gust to bump up the price of gas when you got one going that will do the same for less? Billions in some potsy scheme? Shut down refineries gust to bost the price of gas? shut down power lines gust to raise the demand for power and the price? Lie raise fears and price fix gust to make even more money? All this and more.

The insurance company dose not use a contract to protect itself. It has lawyers, bribes politicians and Judges and time. If it holds out long enof they hope you die and can not collect.

Still with all this my taxes will go up to pay for it some how some rich wanker will get even more money and poor will get little help. Think the states will have to come up with the cash to fund it so it will not happen for years and years. Some states have said they will not go for the plan and said no there will be no NHP.

I know not a single soul in the UK or other countries with a similar healthcare system that would ever say 'Lets get rid of our free health care and replace it with an insurance based system'. Improved maybe, but not removed.

Surely this debate is about personal greed and nothing else?

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

Does the US need heathcare reform - yep But this isnt the plan we need. Obama is pushing the US toward a Socialist Gov in a hurry!!

Everyday I see my neighbors sit on their porch while I go to work in my shop. They receive HUD money for Housing, Medicade for medical and Food Stamps to eat and dont do a damn thing but make more babies and lots of noise. Yet I go to work and do my best to make a living - pay my insurance (health/property and toys) make the payments on all the things I want and then on April 15th I get to Give the Government 28% of all I make, so that my neighbors can sit on their collective butts and do nothing.

The people that do work in this country could afford health care, if the Gov would quit giving money to every freakin illegal that runs across the border to have a baby. Babies that the tax payers support for 18years or longer .................................................. .................................................. ...............................



Geeze I came to this site to talk about motorcycles and going places not the Crap going on in Gov. In November we will have a chance to vote out most of the incumbents and start with a new batch of elected idiots

This is The Bar, where anything goes, within reason

It would seem that the people anti the legislation see two groups of people:

1. Those who work hard and can afford healthcare
2. Spongers who deliberately breed large broods, don't work and are rubbing their hands at getting free healthcare.

Surely there is a 3rd group that they are ignoring, the people who are going to be helped by this, people who would work, but cannot afford healthcare for one reason or another, and will now be genuinely helped.

It would be interesting to know how many people were in each of these groups. There are probably other groups too ..........

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Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

I can t improve on the replies by Fred and Ron , so I will just offer another observation.

I find it very odd and puzzling that in a country supposedly built on the notion of LIBERTY it is considered by many to be the most exquisite and extreme curse to describe sombody as a LIBERAL , and that these so called conservative folk making such disparaging remarks are in effect proposing a regression of society to a level of barbarity which would put the taliban to shame.
Any form of social organisation or government whether it is run by politicians and rational thinkers or by bearded and robed egomaniacs claiming devine guidance is in essence a version of ´´ socialism¨ . Get over it.

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http://advrider.com/index.php?thread....207964/page-5 then scroll down to post #93

All that you said is true CaptTeach but you give more that 28% to the government with all the tax they dream up for the tax payer to pay. It is how they get there $ or so they tell us.

I to hate the illegals that runs across the border to! There illegal because they do not have the legal paper work. So the US government lose a bit of tax $ at there pay rate it will not amount to much. But the government gains a cheap labor market that the people in the government use even when it there laws that make them illegal. It helps big and little business and gives them an escape goat any time they need one. All this and all they need to do is not hand out a paper card and punch in a few numbers in a computer at the border. We did this before computers and had no problem the hell is problem now? Want a real kick go ask a Native American, first nation or what ever the white man came up with to easy his conscience about people coming to the USA and you not liking it.

I hate your neighbors as well no this time I realy do hate them. Hate food stamps now look like credit card need to get people like to Mexico let them live in a real poor slum. People that can work and gust can not bring them self to go do it. They need help only a grate big boot in the back side will fix. I have seen to many poor workers all over to care about waste of skin. They like kids grate here is a job for them look after other people kids and live off that not over taxed workers. Here is why. Do not if it is still so but at one time you can get T bones and caviar with food stamps. I worked at grocery store and this set of people cam in once a week and got that with there stamps I had to bag it. They wanted "help out", wanted me to pack there car with the bags as there to dam useless to do it them self. I told them no and got sent back to the store manager told him why he gust told me it was ok, he liked the idea that if you do not work you do not eat. Better to get some illegals to move in, they work, the kids will do your yard and there food is grate.

As far as a Socialist Gov well ahh hate to tell you we got one, have for years. The US government has bailed out huge companies time and again for seeming no reason. Capitalist say companies that fail are week and need to fail, socialist say we need them for job growth, national defence and any other hot button. This bank thing is gust the last. Look at it this way if you kill your business do you think you will get millions in a bonus? Is your boss going pat you on the back and say good job killing off the company here is 30 million hate to lose you! Hell no. You will be lucky to ever find work agen. Capitalist will not give a dam if they loss you the cut there loss long before it comes to that, they cut you once your output is in just not as black as it can be let alone in the red. Just ask all the people out of work that want it all that lost there jobs do to the plant moving some place the labor is cheap. There capitalist when it helps the bottom line (there bottom line) socialist when it helps them hate people like that. Government workers get socialist perks for doing there job and you and I pay for them till they die. They gust do not want you to have some thing even a little close to them.

As far as liberal vs conservative (D vs. R) most of that is the press branding someone one way or the the other helps them to control your thinking. The truth is there not to far off from one another, there kids play together in the same schools they go do the same things at the same place at the same time. Once out side of camera range both are as pig head as the other. None give an inch and none will get the job done. There job as they see it is to get reelected not get laws passed.
LIBERTY has nothing to do with LIBERAL.
It is only a extreme curse to describe somebody as a liberal if there a conservative. Works the other way around to.
Socialism as he put it is being used to define a government theory not the literal definition of the word.

I've been way too busy at work to spend time to write a reply.

The reasons I do not want such a system is two fold.

1. Nothing is free. This free healthcare is not going to be free. The money has to come from somewhere. Probably by taxing me. Raising my income tax, imposing a vat tax, or taxing me in some hidden fashion (if you tax a business they will pass that cost right back on to the consumer). I am happy paying for my healthcare - the level of care, the type of care, the monetary limits, deductibles, etc - out of my own pocket. Under a gov't system I will be paying for other peoples care and pay for procedures that I find reprehensible.

2. Healthcare is not an unlimited resource. There are only so many doctors, nurses, hospitals, clinics, and pharmaceuticals available. There WILL be rationing. Who will dictate rationing? Some bonehead some federal monstrosity of a building.

Why should that person have any say over my healthcare? I am willing to pay for what I receive, and I'll be damned if I let someone else dictate what healthcare is available to me.

Also note, that I am not a conservative. The definitions are not accurate...

Those that are referred to as 'liberals' are not liberal. They are the opposite of liberal. They are progressives - they favor inequitable rules and taxation based upon gender, race, and income.

I am a liberal...or I should say libertarian in that I espouse individual freedom. Of course that scares people in the collective...

No bailouts, No healthcare, No VAT Tax

If you are happy with your nationalized healthcare, by all means be happy. Use it, love it, whatever. Why must you push your ideas on me?

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West Virginia University 2006
Beta Theta Pi - Beta Psi
Ride Report: TAT...and Beyond

The current system sucks and the detractors brought nothing to the table BUT criticism...and at the end of the day, noise needs to get filtered and things need to get done.
A better system doesn't happen as a revolution but an evolution-nature has laid that out as the natural process that works. What legislation was passed...is a way forward, but shouldn't be construed as the Shangri-la of health-care solutions.

So lets get back to arguing about the best enduro bike for a newbie to RTW...

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edde
93 BMW K75s
www.motoedde.com

I believe the IRS will now be acting as a tax collector for Private Insurance Companies.

However, there is no legal requirement the new taxes be used for Health Care.

You may recall Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. were paid for by raiding Medicare and Social Security taxes which are not required to be spent on the welfare of the people.

So this "Health Care" tax might end up funding an invasion of Iran or Pakistan one day.

People seem to forget why Otto Von Bismarck fathered the Modern Welfare State. Certainly not for the good of the people but rather as an instrument of warfare.

A more centralized and powerful US Federal Government with even more funding to use as it pleases to control and dominate other people is not an improvement.

The difference between a tax and a fee is that a tax is never earmarked whereas a fee is. I'm not sure how the American system is going to work but we pay health insurance fees over here - 14.9% of your taxable income, half of which is deducted from your paycheck the other half is paid for by your employer. This money is completely and 100% used for health care and nothing else. It's quite possible that the system was different under Bismarck and that the second Reich still funded health care through taxes.

And please do not get welfare mixed up with health care. A modern welfare state does much more for its citizens then provide them with health care that everybody can afford

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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and well preserved piece, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting GERONIMO!"

There is no requirement Medicare/Social Security and now Obamacare be spent on the public welfare. It is just more General Fund money for the Federal Government to be used as they please. If history is any guide, it will likely be used for war at the worst and/or corporate giveaways at the best.

I mention Bismarck, the father of the modern welfare state, because this was precisely his purpose. He was jealous of the loyalty shown between family members and wanted that loyalty transferred to to the State for the purposes of the State. The same is true of the US Welfare/Warfare State.

Obviously health care is becoming less affordable in the US. The bill was written by the Insurance Companies. Personal income is falling, unemployment is rising and health care costs are still increasing at double digit rates.

The bill has done nothing to increase access to healthcare. All it has done is increase economic uncertainty and prevent economic recovery. Access to healthcare will be decreasing in the US for decades to come:

Two University Hospital clinics balk at government insurance - The Denver Post