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9 May 2018
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Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 812
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As controversial as ta-rider is/was, I tended to appreciate his posts. The world of moto-adventure is a pretty big one, and there's plenty of room for all kinds of riders and all kinds of budgets.
I'll never be a Charley & Ewan expeditionist on a $25 grand motorcycle, but on the other hand ta-rider's shoestring and baling wire approach was a tad too cheap even for me - as I get older I find my aging bones appreciate a comfy bed and a dry roof at the end of a long day of riding.
Good for ta-rider though, for proving that a young person with lots of drive but little money can still go on a great adventure.
__________________
Bruce Clarke - 2020 Yamaha XV250
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9 May 2018
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Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Honduras
Posts: 175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatOnTrip
I think Tony Lee has point about finding a new strategy to encourage people to contribute wih money.
As I'm typing this and based on the stats of active users, there are about 4000 UNREGISTERED users using this website at the moment. They do use a lot of the servers ressources. Of course some of them are registered user that don't log in.
If the traffic of those 4000 people is not good enough to sustain revenu to pay for the extra servers ressources, maybe they should have a limited access and reduce the servers cost at the same time.
Also covering just the operation expenses is not enough. Grant, Susan and who ever is supporting the website should get some money to cover their time.
Patrick
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From having spent time on a number of different forums over the years, I feel that HU is more like a library than a saloon. People come to the library to learn and there is very little talk. Meanwhile, other forums of similar age focus more on the camaraderie. You get threads about bike builds, people purchasing homes, building garages, local photo tag games, all sorts of things. Much bigger audience.
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9 May 2018
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Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirtyOne
From having spent time on a number of different forums over the years, I feel that HU is more like a library than a saloon. People come to the library to learn and there is very little talk. Meanwhile, other forums of similar age focus more on the camaraderie. You get threads about bike builds, people purchasing homes, building garages, local photo tag games, all sorts of things. Much bigger audience.
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I like your idea of paying to have access to a library.
Maybe all this is a good opportunity to think long term: One day Grant and Susan will decide to stop managing the website for various reasons. Having a new model to keep this website going is a good idea!
Patrick
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9 May 2018
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Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Honduras
Posts: 175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatOnTrip
I like your idea of paying to have access to a library.
Maybe all this is a good opportunity to think long term: One day Grant and Susan will decide to stop managing the website for various reasons. Having a new model to keep this website going is a good idea!
Patrick
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Oh, that was only simile. I wasn't think that way, but yes, I like your way of thinking long term as someday HU will be passed on to new hands. I'm sure Grant and Susan have considered this as well.
In terms of paying for access to a library, I can't say I agree with that. The information that I share, and many many others share, is not meant to be exclusive to paying members. It's not a private club. But, I fully acknowledge that it takes money to keep the lights on...otherwise the library shuts down. The rates here are not unreasonable, not even close. Heck, I'll spend much more than $20 at the bar on a Thursday night. $20 for a year's membership is a drop in the bucket.
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9 May 2018
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Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirtyOne
Oh, that was only simile. I wasn't think that way, but yes, I like your way of thinking long term as someday HU will be passed on to new hands. I'm sure Grant and Susan have considered this as well.
In terms of paying for access to a library, I can't say I agree with that. The information that I share, and many many others share, is not meant to be exclusive to paying members. It's not a private club. But, I fully acknowledge that it takes money to keep the lights on...otherwise the library shuts down. The rates here are not unreasonable, not even close. Heck, I'll spend much more than $20 at the bar on a Thursday night. $20 for a year's membership is a drop in the bucket.
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I'm not talking about a private club. The info needs to be available and affordable for anyone around the world.
If everybody visiting the website would offer a drink to Grant and Susan per year by paypal, we would not have this discussion.
Patrick
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9 May 2018
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R.I.P.
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: california
Posts: 3,824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docsherlock
Grant - I disagree - some of your moderators ban and abuse people who simply disagree with their personal points of view; those would be the dickhead ones - and they know who they are, as do most regular users.
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100% agree. I'm sure Grant does not have time to read every moderators comments on every thread. But if you DO read them, you can see the critics above expressed many times over throughout the forum.
Simply straying slightly off topic can bring a rebuke and not so subtle put downs.
Even if offering opinions ON topic, a certain mod will find fault and attempt to discredit the member and "warn" the forum against believing anything this member has posted.
Trust me, Docsherlock is correct.
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9 May 2018
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Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cholo
Remember that librarys have to buy the books, rewarding the posters with encyclopedic knowledge, with free (or reduced cost) access to the forum and meetings should keep them here.
We know who they are
So how does one contribute??
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Cholo, we were not talking about making real books. We were talking about the vision of the HU website: the info here is more like a library then a discussion forums likes other sites.
I think it's time for me to stop Brainstorming.
Patrick
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9 May 2018
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R.I.P.
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: california
Posts: 3,824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brclarke
As controversial as ta-rider is/was, I tended to appreciate his posts. The world of moto-adventure is a pretty big one, and there's plenty of room for all kinds of riders and all kinds of budgets.
I'll never be a Charley & Ewan expeditionist on a $25 grand motorcycle, but on the other hand ta-rider's shoestring and baling wire approach was a tad too cheap even for me - as I get older I find my aging bones appreciate a comfy bed and a dry roof at the end of a long day of riding.
Good for ta-rider though, for proving that a young person with lots of drive but little money can still go on a great adventure.
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I agree. Even though sometimes Toby is less than clear and he can be a bit of a pedant, (partly a function of language barrier), his comments can sometimes come off as offensive.
Is that against HUBB rules?
Toby is a legit veteran traveler with more years and miles than most. He is of the super budget variety. Not for everyone of course. But I can appreciate his perspectives even though I don't follow his guidelines. Takes all kinds ... and good ideas can come from anywhere.
Austin Vince is (or was?) against big money commercializing of ADV Travel, yet we don't see him banned or even questioned. Austin frequently makes cruel jokes at expense of the monied GS crowd, Ewan and Charlie et al ... yet no one comes after him. (Austin's film pedigree aides his world wide credibility)
In fact, if you've read Toby's posts for a long time, you can actually see similarities between Austin and Toby. The difference is Austin makes it all very humorous ... where Toby can be a little "too German" at times. 
All to say it may be up to some interpretation.
Last edited by Grant Johnson; 11 May 2018 at 05:27.
Reason: adding comment: Austin does not post here, so comments regarding him are irrelevant, and he would be subject to same rules!
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9 May 2018
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Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London and Granada Altiplano
Posts: 3,122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatOnTrip
As I'm typing this and based on the stats of active users, there are about 4000 UNREGISTERED users using this website at the moment. They do use a lot of the servers resources.
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Much as I'd love it to be true that there's 4,000 silent users browsing the forum, I fear you would find they are Google or other webbots searching and indexing content.
The nice thing about that is that instead of using the forum's search facility, you can search HUBB using Google—even for three letter terms not normally allowed. So try typing
site:horizonsunlimited.com tr6
and see what comes up!
________________
Someone wrote about mods banning people because they disagree with their point of view. This doesn't happen. The mods are quick to ban spammers, but it's rare to ban genuine bikers and any potential ban is fully discussed in the moderators' forum before it happens. I've just gone back over the posts in the mods forum and in the last two years since April 2016 there have been 22 infractions (warnings) and two banned—xfiltrate and now ta-rider.
Most of the 22 infractions were for being rude or abusive to other forum users.
__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)
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10 May 2018
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Registered Users
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Honduras
Posts: 175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog
I agree. Even though sometimes Toby is less than clear and he can be a bit of a pedant, (partly a function of language barrier), his comments can sometimes come off as offensive.
Is that against HUBB rules?
Toby is a legit veteran traveler with more years and miles than most. He is of the super budget variety. Not for everyone of course. But I can appreciate his perspectives even though I don't follow his guidelines. Takes all kinds ... and good ideas can come from anywhere.
Austin Vince is (or was?) against big money commercializing of ADV Travel, yet we don't see him banned or even questioned. Austin frequently makes cruel jokes at expense of the monied GS crowd, Ewan and Charlie et al ... yet no one comes after him. (Austin's film pedigree aides his world wide credibility)
In fact, if you've read Toby's posts for a long time, you can actually see similarities between Austin and Toby. The difference is Austin makes it all very humorous ... where Toby can be a little "too German" at times.
All to say it may be up to some interpretation.
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I had this same discussion with my students today. It's all about tone and connotation. Because of the format here, voiceless written text, it can be sometimes impossible to detect sarcasm or the true meaning of what someone is saying. So you need to think about what you type before you click the post button.
It only further drives the point of Grant's earlier post. Don't be a dick. It's as simple as that.
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10 May 2018
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Registered Users
New on the HUBB
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 19
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Grant and Tim,
Thanks for giving us some insite into the moderation/banning process.
I enjoyed(although probably disagreed with) many of ta-riders and xfiltrates comments, and I can't imagine this site without mollydog.
Having said that, I see that banning is not done without a lot of thought.
Tim,
I followed your advice and was rewarded. I think I am going to have to buy Paul Pratt's book.
Last edited by Mogy; 10 May 2018 at 01:40.
Reason: Spelling
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10 May 2018
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Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chalkida, GREECE
Posts: 142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog
That's mighty generous of you! :smarts:
"product"? So that's how you see HUBB and Horizon's? A "product" to be bought and sold? And I suppose we readers here are nothing more than potential "paying customers" in your scheme?
Good luck with that business model! 
You seem to contradict yourself several times in your LONG rant!
(I thought I rambled on! ... are you sure you're not Irish?  Man, you can talk!)
In what way is Horizons not a "premium" service? So what other travel web site DOES offer a "premium" service, in your opinion?
Innovation? Have you ever seen Grant's DVD series for new travelers? IMO, those are innovations at a premium level. But what they bring is also EXCEPTIONAL.
Tell me where else can you gather with experts and pick their brains and hear their stories ... first hand?
"Added value", (man, you want a HELL OF A LOT for free!  )
So, it's not enough for you to hear presentations IN PERSON from some of the most experienced and innovative motorcycle traveler legends in the world in your presence?
Grant has managed to bring the most important travelers in the world to his rallies at one time or the other over the last decade or more. Everyone from Ted Simon, Simon Gandolphi, Austin Vince, Lois Pryce, to Peter Forewood, Greg Frazier ... and dozens more travel luminaries over the years. Legends in the RTW travel community ... nearly ALL have appeared at HUBB events.
Look it up man, IMO, about as "Premium" as it gets.
If you can't learn and gain inspiration from these guys, then you may be brain dead. 
Are you mainly looking to find a way to make a quick buck here on HUBB?
You could be the guy ta rider is afraid of ... so he rants on regards the crass commercialization of the Adventure riding World.
But, IMO, Grant has steered HU away from this ... but the result is a small forum, but an important one, IMO.
I've seen this change coming on 20 years, and like ta rider, not all that happy. Not all travelers want to figure out how to make money from travel or from a web site or from other travelers ... and rallies that feature $500K USD UniMog's are not my cup of tea either.
So, you're looking for business opportunities here, right? Fact is, most motorcycle travelers simply want to travel a bit, indulge in other cultures, see the sites, take photos, chill out and relax, renew and de-stress a bit ... NOT make a bundle of cash off other travelers.
I'm not a fan of venture capitalist types, sorry ... and hate to think of ADV Travel and HUBB as a "product" ... but I guess we are to some.  |
Since someone works his ass to offer & organise something (like Grant & Susan), puts a price tag & has an accountant, for me its a product or a service so its a business which has risks, profits & of course losses. And have my respect.
After all, too much criticism & too much assumptions my friend.. Why?
Because we disagree?
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10 May 2018
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Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wessex, UK
Posts: 2,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogy
I think I am going to have to buy Paul Pratt's book.
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I was manning the bookstore at an HU meeting once and tried to sell a copy to Ted Simon and delude myself that I nearly succeeded.
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10 May 2018
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HU Founder
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docsherlock
I didn't realize the issues with Toby were so extensive....
Sorry to hear that.
Grant - I disagree - some of your moderators ban and abuse people who simply disagree with their personal points of view; those would be the dickhead ones - and they know who they are, as do most regular users.
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See the comments by Tim Cullis please. If you have any specific issues with anyone, user, Gold Member, moderator, me, as ALWAYS, REPORT THE POST!! It then goes into the Moderators Private Forum for all moderators to see and discuss. We DO NOT delete those posts, so the discussion is always available for the record.
Moderators have expressed to me in response to this that they are open to "moderation" and adjustment as needed in their own posts. Remember, they are human and can get annoyed just like all of us. At the same time they are very aware that whatever they post reflects on HU too.
If you want it private, not for all moderators to see, send me a PM or an email, and I'll get back to you as quickly as possible. Can't always be fast - for instance today was a doctors visit in town - good news, the cancer is sitting still and behaving, so I'm good for a long time yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cholo
Remember that librarys have to buy the books, rewarding the posters with encyclopedic knowledge, with free (or reduced cost) access to the forum and meetings should keep them here.
We know who they are
So how does one contribute??
Found it !
funny hoy a lifetime(20 years) costs$25 per year, and a normal yearly costs $20 per year, Susan! thought you used to be an accountant
Jezzus I got upgraded fast
I do however expect not to be banned, suspended if I'm an idiot perhaps , but not banned for the next 20 years!
BTW how old are you Grant? do ride carefully now ;-)
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"suspended if I'm an idiot" - noted!  Banned would be very unlikely, and if so you'd have earned it many times over.
See the thread about this - a second thread opened by Cholo in website feedback: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...978#post583819
Upgrades done through the Subscription system are instant. AND a BIG thank you to Cholo for his Lifetime Membership, we're extremely gratified to see that kind of support. Keeps us working
For the record, I'm 69. Ride carefully? Usually... 
A "succession plan" is something we talk about often, if anyone is interested in anything in this area let me know. At some point in the not too far distant future we want to travel some more ourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog
100% agree. I'm sure Grant does not have time to read every moderators comments on every thread. But if you DO read them, you can see the critics above expressed many times over throughout the forum.
Simply straying slightly off topic can bring a rebuke and not so subtle put downs.
Even if offering opinions ON topic, a certain mod will find fault and attempt to discredit the member and "warn" the forum against believing anything this member has posted.
Trust me, Docsherlock is correct.
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See my comment above re Moderators.
As for time to read posts, no, I have none unless it's brought to my attention. We both work 7 days, 8 hours minimum often more, just trying to keep up, we read what we must, and trust the community and the mods to keep it civil, supportive, helpful and productive for all.
I hope all that makes sense!
__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.
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Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com
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10 May 2018
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HU Founder
Veteran HUBBer
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Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony LEE
Lots of forums have two tiers of membership. Ordinary members have no access to PM or emails or certain value-added sections of files and information, POI files and the like. Full members pay a few pounds/dollars per year and get access to the lot. The owner could also recognise the value of certain members who are mostly givers of information that enhances the overall value of the forum and grant full membership at zero cost.
That way the site owners have a big incentive to keep things ticking over to encourage members to pay for the upgrade.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatOnTrip
I think Tony Lee has point about finding a new strategy to encourage people to contribute wih money.
As I'm typing this and based on the stats of active users, there are about 4000 UNREGISTERED users using this website at the moment. They do use a lot of the servers ressources. Of course some of them are registered user that don't log in.
If the traffic of those 4000 people is not good enough to sustain revenu to pay for the extra servers ressources, maybe they should have a limited access and reduce the servers cost at the same time.
Also covering just the operation expenses is not enough. Grant, Susan and who ever is supporting the website should get some money to cover their time.
Patrick
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We have ALWAYS said that we will never charge for access to the site. We believe that what makes the site great is the users contributions. We don't believe they should be charged to see their own info, but if they want to support the site, wonderful. So we are depending on people realizing that there's no free lunch, and it all has to be paid for by someone, somehow.
We are facilitators and sometimes educators, but you guys are the ones on the road with the latest up-to-date information, information I couldn't possibly collect if I spent a lifetime on the road, as it's out-of-date in such a short time!
What we need to be able to do what we do is memberships, advertisers, and people buying our Achievable Dream series, calendars, and coming to events both as participants but also as presenters to pass on their knowledge.
For those who don't understand what it takes to run a site of this size and complexity, (I know some people think we have real jobs and this is a hobby!) it's FULL time plus for me since 1998, Susan also since 2009, and Grace part-time for the last three years, plus we have "contract" people to do the graphics, video editing and coding for site upgrades. We SHOULD do a lot more than we do, (I have a list of about a million things to do) and a whole lot of things would be a lot better than they are, but there just isn't enough money to pay the bills to do that, or the time, so we just do what we can, when we can. Progress is being made, slowly, not always visibly, but progress is made.
In the end, HU has to do more than cover it's costs, it has to pay our rent, our food, and eventually our retirement, although it will be somewhere cheap and warm!
__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.
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Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com
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Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
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