Did you consider the DL650? Cheaper, more powerful, more comfortable and better handling than anything else under 900cc.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

There's an interesting mix in the responses in here to the original question; the mix of reminiscence about the good old days and how the manufacturing of one nation in particular was superceded by that of another, along with the answers that the OP is probably seeking - i.e. how modern bikes are chosen to be purchased.

At least so far no one has said that they bought a bike after reading a test report by a journalist.

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Dave

The idea that japanese manufacturing killed off the old Brit bike manufacturing is complete rubbish. An urban myth.

Brit bikes were into decline from about the late 1930's. You only have to look at those manufacturers that were long gone before Honda started making lawnmowers. Brough, Vincent, Sunbeam, Douglas, Rudge and lots more. They all died long before the advent of Japan as a motorcycle manufacturer. Japan partly filled the void left by the demise of the old Brit bikes in the same way mammals filled the void left by the demise of the dinasaurs.

Although Triumph has been resurrected, it is in name only. The bikes are not for the market for which the old vintage bikes were made, cheap transport. They do not have the appeal to me of the old bikes. It is very rarely that I can look at a modern bike that I would want to own.

Reverse is true for me. There have been massive improvements in technology over the last couple of decades - let's face it, most road bikes were dangerously unsafe when cornering until the mid-late eighties when radial tyres for bikes, and proper frames started being built.

Brakes? Drum brakes on a bike are an absolute joke (sadly, most riders weren't laughing when they tried to stop quickly, however) and early disc brakes weren't much better either. By comparison, ABS is streets ahead when it comes to safety.

Who remembers having to regularly set ignition points, change sparkplugs and rejet carbies (going uphill to any sort of an altitude used to mean massive power losses) and compare this to today's EFI and computerised ignition module.

As for power, comfort, rideability, - not to mention style - they have all come ahead by leaps and bounds.

For me, the oldest bike I will touch is my '74 RD350 which I have owned for over 40 years - a bike that was at the cutting edge of '70s technology.

As for any european bike prior to the mid nineties, you have to be joking.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Some truth there ... especially regards the classic brands you mention. But don't forget the final "surge" during the mid 60's to early 70's where Triumph/BSA exported more bikes to the USA in a few years than they'd sold in the previous 10 years. They broke every record. Triumph were a BIG deal here in California ... which sets ALL trends for the whole USA.

You can check the Triumph books by guys like Mick Walker and other historians. The old guard directors at Triumph/BSA group were tired after this "last fling" sending 10's of thousands of bikes to America.

Some of those last runs of bikes were the Triumph and BSA triples and some of the least reliable bikes Triumph/BSA group made. Porous castings, crap electrics, carbs and cams that wore out in 5000 miles.
I owned a '79 Bonneville Special, which was quite good. A rare thing.

By 1970 the Japanese were coming on strong with their CB750 inline four. But Triumph, BSA and Harley still were THE bikes to own ... and thousands in SoCal where I lived DID own British bikes.

But the big bosses at Triumph/BSA no longer cared about motorbikes, about the workers or about their country's industrial future. They drained the companies coffer's and fled into the night, selling off old new stock for pennies on the pound. But this came as no surprise to anyone paying attention at the time. They all knew it was coming.


That's a shame. I'm rather proud of what Triumph have done ... and I'm an American ... but Brit bikes were part of me, heart & soul as a kid.

I don't like every model they've made but seems to me the "new" Bonneville is certainly a good basic bike for relatively cheap transport. And it's 20 times more reliable and long lived as it's predecessors. A bit expensive perhaps but more or less in line with current bikes. I also believe the current Street Triple line are some of the very best and inspirational bikes in motorcycling today. Stunning bikes in every way, IMHO.

I believe many can be prompted to buy a new bike from bike reviews.

Based on the feed back we got at City Bike (San Francisco) for the 20 years I was there, I found many advertising dealers would often say a customer mentioned reading the City Bike review of the bike in question ... and just had to see it in person and take a test ride. Many sold as a result. Most buyers read ALL reviews in every mag before buying, I DO believe they influence buyers to some extent.

I was rather proud of one case: the owner of a BIG multi line dealer claimed he sold 3 new V-Strom's based on my review ... and ended up selling 10 in that month. That is a BIG deal! Had to scrounge them from other, far away dealers to fill the orders.

Another writer at City Bike reviewed the new Ducati MultiStrada (2007).
Local dealer followed up and invited customers for test rides based on how much response he got from our bike review. He sold 17 Multi's in two weeks ... at around $20,000 a copy !!

A good review can influence readers to buy ... or to at least check out a particular bike. Buying motorcycles is an emotional response, not always thought out or logical. But certain things can trigger interest if you know your audience ... and if they know you.

Mollydog what you say is soooooooo true..........


So in some way we can blame bike review's for the type of bikes that are on the market. Which is the same as last year but with more power. So many times I read some bike writer who is testing, some bike or other that has 182 BHP. Which is 2 BHP over last year's model. Then go's on to say that the two extra BHP makes all the difference. Or it wheelie's all over the place. Great stoppies. I need a bike that is low on maintance. will run for ever. Do 100 MPG, and cruse at 90+. Easy on my Azz. and will carry luggage.


Do they make one? not that I've seen.
John933

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To buy petrol in Europe. Pull up at station. Wait. Get out a 20 Euro note, then ask someone to fill up the bike. Give person money. Ride away. Simple.

Back to Jap over European. I go for Jap, because, they are more reliable, don't leak oil, spare's are easy to come by, and most place's can fix them. European bike's where in my younger day's. When you went out in the morning to start them up. Would they go. You alway's had to have a plan "B" to get to where ever you where going with a European bike. A jap bike, was go out side, press the tit and she would fire up no problem. As long as you changed the oil, plug's, and filters. They would run for ever. But I stated my biking day's on a Honda, so was kind of spoilt.
John933

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To buy petrol in Europe. Pull up at station. Wait. Get out a 20 Euro note, then ask someone to fill up the bike. Give person money. Ride away. Simple.

I still maintain that the Japs finished off the Brit bike manufacturing effort: I agree that they did not start the decline but they participated in the fall - putting in the bayonet to finish off the incipient corpse which was gasping at the time: put another way, they provided the customers with a better alternative in the market.
All the earlier businesses going bust, or amalgamating badges (Matchless/AJS for instance) was the prelude, as was occurring in the car industry - I well recall when Datsun started their dealerships here in the 60s.
Hey ho, that's business and lo and behold the likes of Triumph have risen from the ashes (dare we mention CCM here?)
Me!


The workforce were also very bloody minded at times, but true enough - mutual suicide from both sides of the workspace.
Now we have Japanese working methods in much of our manufacturing which they copied from someone else - I don't quite recall who, it's well over twenty years since I studied this topic.
Very recently a Brit has been appointed as the worldwide CEO for the McDonalds fast food business, so times have changed.

I quite believe it: I was just saying that those in here (all half dozen of us?) haven't said as much.
I haven't read a bike review in printed form in a number of years - not sure how long ago. Things have moved along - come to think of it, the "review" type of posts in here are quite disjointed, in a funny sort of way.

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Dave

PS
Does this thread really belong in the pub?
It contains some very considered ideas IMO - maybe material for "which bike".
Just a thought.

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Dave

I don't buy Japanese bikes these days for reasons really nothing to do with the products that they build which i think are now generally of a good to very high quality.

But i won't go into my reasons at all its a personal thing.

Right lets hold on to them hats !!!!! - here we go.

Now i am very particular to my very rosey tinted specs - comes with age me thinks - But to say the Japs were building quality back in the 70's seems to be stretching it more than a little bit

The actual build quality of many of the bikes was simply appauling, They were often very heavy,handled like bags of potatoes, paint peeled - that's if they were painted my Yamaha (an xs 1100 sport) had no paint on the underside of the tank, the engine paint peeled within months, chrome 1 micron thick if you were lucky and the downpipes rusted quicker than a Lancia beta.

Engines were often reliable but dont forget the many were not - design failures chocolate cams etc come to mind - you just do not hear of the failures so much these days. Even the premium jap stuff of the day were not in the same league as the premium European built bikes.

Generally the bikes rusted the electrics could not cope with wet conditions, (am i talking about jap or italian here - hard to tell isn't it they were both bad) but the japs also added cheap frames some were pressed steel and fairly poor quality with flex very common. cheapest of the cheap brakes, suspension and tyres all built down to a budget for very dry climates in The wet cold UK - They were terrible.

Performance wise against European competition at the time they were poor (i owned Ducatis, Laverdas, Moto guzzis and BMW's during that period the laverda was very very reliable ( and had jap electrics !), the Ducati i also used as an everyday bike and travelled often between Cornwall and Scotland it never let me down My BMW r65 was very reliable and my bmw r80 and r100s was exceptionally good. (my Guzzis were generally poor on the reliability front and worse than the japs on finish -i have owned several since that time all have been pretty unreliable - but they are still my favourite bike !!


These days I think the Jap's Builds good quality at the budget, with good engines and electrics if largely bland bikes in my eye (rose tints coming on here).

But look to quality stuff like KTM , Norton (Big price) certainly - Ducati and even to a degree Moto guzzi have upped the quality control and reliability and finish and build in many instances and i would say (slipping on those specs again- are again ahead of Japan on build, quality, design and materials. (I do not include BMW here as they sold themselves down the river to the marketing men big style).

Anyway give me a bike designed and built in a European factory with its foibles, failings and eccentricities (moto Guzzi , Norton and to a degree KTM any day over a bland bit of tin from the land of the rising sun.

By the way i currently run a ducati engined cagiva a 750 with 60hp good mid range torque, very reliable weighs in at 180kgs, thats quite a bit lighter than many jap 650's with far better and more usable power, suspension etc. and its 20 years old and still going strong.

On the main content of this subject though it doesn,t really matter what you choose - most bikes will do the job to a reasonable degree - you just need to chose your route and the area you ride to suit.

Currently I own a 2003 Thunderbird and 2005 Enfield.

If I had to do a really long trip away from first world resources I would choose to take the Enfield. the thunderbird is much like the BMW I had but much better (for me) even so It is not a bike that takes to being offroad. I don;t mean 100's of miles without roads, Just a trip across a wet grassy field to pitch my tent would be "exciting" The Enfield wouldn't mind a bit.

What you have to remember is the old bikes were designed for a different market and a different purpose in a different time. they were disigned to be hand built by craftsmen ( which is another reason why the quality dropped when they built large numbers at the end of the 60's. had to run on 80 ron fuel, monograde oils and natural rubber crossply tyres. Also no motorways, just the little A and B roads where doing 45mph was making good time. their world is gone. Like wise few modern bikes would work very well if you were to transport them back to 1935.

What do they say Jake. The victors write history?


Or each read history in different way's. I came up through the sixties seen the jap bike's come in to the UK market. Where the UK bike maker's where not interested in the small 50cc run around's. Let them have that end of the market, we'll take the rest.


Let's go back to the end of the second world war. Before my time by the way. When there was no Japanese bike manufactures. Brit bike's ruled the world. At the end of the war, Brittan was heavy in to deit. So the government of the day made the rule export or die. That's when the world was buying Brit bike. Why because none where on sale in the UK. Or what was, where of small quaintly. There was no R&D in the war year's on bike's. So all they could build was pre war bike's in a pre war way. And lot's of them. A little bit off the beaten track. If any one can remember the 50's. I can, at that time the road's where full of push bike's taking men to work. The main road to the big industrial estate's where eight ten abreast of bikes. You could not get a car on the road, or just about. The odd side car out fit, which was ex Army sale's. The money was coming in. Then you had the house building project. Took a lot of men to build houses. In the them day's people where leavening job one day and get a new job the next, just for a penny or tupence an hour more. That's history.


In Japan. Honda started to put small engines in to push bike's. The one's that has a wheel that rubbed up against the back tyre and drove you along. But most of this you know. I'm saying it for the younger reader's who don't. And it grew quite rapidly in to making small 50cc mopeds. What made Honda was the C50 and the C90. All nice people ride a Honda. When it got to when Honda was selling over a 1,00 unit's a month. It was time to go racing. Honda picked the TT. Racing 125 and 250. The first time they went out they got the Azz kicked big time. Time to go home.




Design failures chocolate cams etc come to mind


This one come's up time and time again. It was not so much a design failure as more a quality control failure on the materials used in making the cam's. But by then there where a lot of bike out there failing. So it was stop making them and back to the drawing board. The over head cam shaft used in the failing VFR, is still used to day. So it's not a design fault, but as I said, it was a material fault.


The break through for Honda was the Dream bike. What we know as the super dream or the CB series. Honda is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in Japan and has been since it started production in 1955. At its peak in 1982, Honda manufactured almost three million motorcycles annually. With that kind of sale's they can't be a bad bike.
John933

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To buy petrol in Europe. Pull up at station. Wait. Get out a 20 Euro note, then ask someone to fill up the bike. Give person money. Ride away. Simple.

You haven't missed much in the mags. Not really what they used to be, IMHO, but the Brit mags at least let the writers stretch their legs a bit and get deeper into a bike's personality. The USA mags are terrible at this. A paragraph or two and that's it ... no depth, no real insight provided. Most of the mags are ALL ads ... even more than before.

I have ridden/owned both European and Japanese bike, BMW, Suzuki, Honda and loved them all. They all had there own little quirks which made them unique in there own right
At the moment I have my first Yamaha (XT600E 03)
Why did I go with it? Well after riding off road for about 3 years it was time I went back to road riding and I was also getting the travel bug and eventually wanted to ride my bike in another country. After doing a lot of research on the different types of bike which are good for adventure travel i.e. KLR, GS, XT, DR etc I ended up with the XT by chance as I saw it on the pages of this site, went and had a look, it is pretty much good to go with the mods and the price and milage were good. So home it came.

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417