Political debates irrespective of forum type are not for everyone, not all attract intelligent, factual and non-provocative contributions.

I hope this thread continues to be non-bias, balance debate with a varied opinion.


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Very true...

The general feeling from this thread has been very anti Europe. That could be for many reasons but my guess is that most of the forum members probably don't want to get involved in a Daily Mail type thread. When I originally asked the question I thought the replies would be more balanced.

However..

I've read all the replies and they have been very interesting and thought provoking. I've learnt a lot.


I'm still undecided though.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Unfortunately I've not to date read 'all' 12 pages of the thread, however the impression of being anti-Europe isn't a true summary & conclusion to some.

Maybe It's the 'EU political' element & regular interference and meddling, especially from an unelected council.

Both campaigns have been poor to say the least, which is even more disturbing.


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I think if you do a thread like this you are going to get some points/quotes/replies which some people don't agree with. Even though I am a seasoned traveller and have been all over the world (not always on a bike) like most of the people on this forum and despite us being open minded it doesn't mean to say that we all agree with what is going on in the UK or with a group of unelected Eurocrats meddling where they can. It is/has been an interesting thread to read.

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

But your poll currently has the 'NO to leave' camps in the lead.

I wonder if you are insulated to a degree by being based in the Wirral and comfortably away from the migration hotspots. London always has been a melting pot of different nationalities and cultures but it's got to the stage where white UK-born people represent less than 50% of the total population.

Some people have longer memories of what happened and there's some awkward criticisms that benefit from being aired. It is said Labour Party politicians welcomed high levels of immigration on the basis that (1) the incoming migrants were typically more likely to be natural Labour Party voters, and (2) would likely vote Labour in thanks for the opening of borders. If true, this would be gerrymandering on a grand scale. At best it was an ill-considered social engineering project to make Britain multicultural.

When the EU expanded to the east in 2004 with the accession of the 'A10 countries' Tony Blair didn't have to open the UK to the Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and other eastern Europeans. But he did and hundreds of thousands came.

They came to the UK because the Germans and others had restrictions in place for seven years—this is the origin of the proposed seven-year emergency brake for the UK. But this is all too late, I doubt we will get the seven-year brake and in any case it's locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I hasten to state I have no dislike of the Poles who I think are generally hard working and are not a burden to welfare, but it has placed increasing strain on our infrastructure—schools, hospitals, etc. But what I do find difficult to swallow is the reaction of the Polish government to suggestions from the EU that they shoulder some of the migration load. Seeing the country has been emptied by migration westwards, you would think they have space to spare, but apparently, Poles don't understand immigrants, don't want them. They fear immigrants take work away from Poles which is a bit rich when you consider what happened in the UK.

Everything I've written above has to do with migration, but I think it's too late to do much about that. As I've said before, my issue and the same for many other people is the increasing loss of sovereignty that the EU threatens.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

It's not specifically an issue of foreigners taking the work from Poles' hands. Polish society (like Hungarian, another example) doesn't deal well with foreigners. Much less with foreigners with different cultural habits. Some may call them racists and, even if it might be a strong word to accurately define them, it also might not be too far from the point.

Both Poles and Hungarians have historical traumas with foreigners which left a deep fear in their colective mind. Further, during the most part of the XX Century they were closed without much contact with the outside world, let alone foreigners residing among them. All together caused these societies to be quite unwelcome to migrants. Even for tourists, if you leave the big cities, you may end up being looked with suspicion.


It's never too late. And, what's more, I'm affraid that if it isn't dealt with now, the people will end up dealing with it later in a much worst fashion. It's already happening, anyway, but it has the potential to become much worst.

The migration theme is one which I follow since the late 1990s. Ever since I've written and said the same thing and things are occuring as expected. Back then I advocated controls to the immigration for not doing so was inviting trouble in the future. In those times it could still had been dealt without major problems. If not, then we would see the growth of anti-immigration right-wing parties in several countries, something which started precisily in the late-90s. It happened and right now several anti-immigration parties are already in government in several countries. If it isn't dealt now, next stop might quite well be fascist or neo-nazi parties and that will be worst for everybody, starting by the immigrants themselves and it is quite possible that we end up assisting to mass-deportations and citizenship deprivations, even if in breach of the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. Seeing it from society, it has always been very clear to me that it was only a matter of time before people started taking care of things by themselves. It is already happening and I'm affraid that what we are seeing these days is just the beggining.

It would had been much easier to start solving the problem 10-12 years ago. Of course it was. But back then the political correctness (the plague of modern times) fully prevented any sort of solution or even the slightest curtailment to immigration like several other countries do. Like Australia, NZ, the USA or Canada do. It was impossible to do so in Western European Countries. So problems piled up, quietly but steadily. Right now there is still much that can still be done even if not as painlessly as if something had been done years ago. However the necessary measures go against moral principles in most Western European countries so nothing is done. But yes, Tim, a lot can be done right now. And should be done! For if not, something will indeed be done in the future (it's already starting in Denmark and France) which will be much, much worst for everybody. For the migrants above the rest, the good ones along with the bad elements.

At least no one's mentioned Diana

Between Pegida and the national front in France (their fairly recent potential fortune in French elections), the average populace seems to equate Political asylum seekers fleeing for their lives and other migrants who are not in any physical danger. Several 'media' outlets blur or remove the destinations between these two very different groups. There was a recent video doing the rounds on social media that basically said if people thought asylum seekers from Syria were blagging their need to enter Europe, they should watch the attached video that showed very clearly the utter devastation created due to the war.

One of the main problems is, as a result of the bungled way both Iraq 'wars' were handled, none in the West are at all keen to get involved in Syria. If the international community had LEGALLY stepped in when the civil war began, then much of what's now happening would not be happening. The problem with many of our leaders is they cannot think beyond their next election, irrespective as to whether it would be best globally or not.

As to Ted's earlier point, I too began this thread thinking that we should not leave. I still hold this basic tenant, but I'd like some changes. Riding a motorbike, as many of us do, we are often at the sharp end of beaurocrats who make decisions arbitrarily, us having no recourse through elections to remove idiots who 'know best'. Although I'd like beaurocratic changes, I'm still a believer that we're stronger together.

Insulated from migrants on the Wirral !!! Hahah Hilarious. I think you need re-educating about your own country. Merseyside has one of the largest migrant populations in the UK. Probably due to lower prices than elsewhere in the U.K. We have one of the largest china towns in Europe and there are more Eastern Europeans in my home city than scousers. We have more foreign accents than I can recognise. Every restaurant and bar in Liverpool is staffed by Spanish and Italians. My partner is Italian too. The difference in Merseyside is that we are friendly, tolerant and used to high immigration as we were one of the busiest ports in the world. We embrace it, welcome it and integrate. There is very little ill-feeling about migration. It makes life colourful and interesting.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

"White UK-born people"

What's your point there Tim? You seem to use that statistic rather liberally and with a negative spin without really saying why you find it a nuisance? Are you referring to the non-UK born but "white" people, i.e. The hundreds of thousands of Irish and Americans, (though many of them could be "non-White"). I'm a quarter Black though you'd never know it from me being a ginger- where would I fit in? Should we differentiate between pure white and mostly white? I never understood these sorts of classifications and to be honest I think they are as abused as they are arbitrary. Maybe you could expand on that?

A short read about the FSA is quite revealing, who was funding it and how it was politically supported, etc. You're emphasis on legally was noted. The west have been after Assad for a while and I believe the 3 million or so refugees are a direct result of western intervention. NATO et al and whoever is running the show behind it are allowed to destroy counties and cause untold death, misery and suffering, the political frontmen are reshuffled and the war machine rumbles on.

Before the funding and arming of the FSA Syria was one of the most developed and progressive counties in the Middle East. It will take generations to overcome the destruction. Now it's just the latest stage in an absurd and unnecessary theatre of war between Iran, Russia and the West and Gulf States.

For whose benefit and interest does this new model of boarder less and never ending war suit? Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Yemen (note the near total media black out!) and now Syria. It's totally depressing, and yet after decades of bombing the Middle East the newest and best solution is more of the same. All for resources which we can no longer afford to use.


For me there is a lot of hyperbole and simple bias dressed up as intellectual debate - little in the way of facts or analysis. It's mostly as simple as EU is bad and must go. But why? The reason is mostly because it 'doesn't work', though it's not said why. Will the UK, Europe or the world be a better place without the EU? If so why? It's all strawman - attacks on the EU itself as an institution and little about the actual policies, laws or regulation which it enacts.

So many are concerned about Britain losing it's Sovereignty..

It's just my uneducated opinion and I've not backed it up with hours of internet research but I don't think we have had Sovereignty since WW2..

Our culture was Americanised decades ago, our Royal family is on par with Disney World. We have no colonies left, our Navy is about as threatening as pedal boat fleet and we have to pretty much import everything that we enjoy.

So what is this Sovereignty we speak about ?? What do we want to go back to ??

Do we want to go back to sitting on a wet windy concrete seaside deckchair savouring meat pies and cold mushy peas ?

Where does this idea come from that if we leave the EU we will revert back to some promised land of 'Britishness'

The EU is BROKEN !! I can't and won't argue with that. It needs dramatic reform.

But if we leave that will just leave our spineless politicians to jump into bed with someone else.

So are we to become the 51st State of the USA next or maybe a new Chinese colony ??

There have been so many comments how we will be better off out of Europe ?? So please, tell me what comes next when we leave ??? What is the future ?? How will it be better ??

I, like most people have no idea....

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Spineless politicians will go wherever they think it best suits 'their' career.

We'll not become the next 51st state.

I'd like the UK to fiscally progressive, and our UK is more than ugly enough to financially support itself.

No business has made plans to relocate, the UK's employment status is a huge attraction and we've still a skills shortage so the eu jobs issue will rebalance itself.

Last GE: project fear, Labour/SNP
EU ref: project fear mk2, scaremongering over trade, jobs and unattractive to other wise countries.

So far I've seen very little global vision just eu tunnel vision.

However, the electorate always votes for the safe option so is be extremely surprised if we do leave.....


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Fiscally progressive and global vision, EU tunnel vision, what do these mean? Forgive me I'm so tired of news speak and buzz words.

A tad ingenious reply. That's Liverpool and its chinatown you are describing. The Wirral is on the west bank of the Mersey and has highly desirable locations such as Wallasey, Heswall and Bebbington. Multi-milllion pound houses, footballers' mansions...

A bit like comparing Chelsea and Battersea.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I think you possibly had a different word in mind than 'liberally' (open to new ideas, broad-minded, generous, etc.).

What's my point? It's that the original population of London (compared, say, to the days of WWII) is becoming a minority. Did I say it was a nuisance? Er... no. Did I give it a negative spin? Again, no.

It was an observation. Have a read of the 2011 census.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.. Your googling needs work. But good attempt.

I was born in Liverpool and I spend half my week there and half on the Wirral. So forgive me if I think I know my own region better than you.. Considering I've lived there my whole life.

I'm sure you know better though and you will no doubt Google some half facts to back it up.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.