Today's posts bring me back to a thought from page 1. The EU is a bus tour run by a committee. If you want to be in you have to live with the CAP, paying benefits to whoever, straight bananas etc. The Swiss are on a motorcycle tour, they call in the places on the bus tour they fancy and avoid the bingo and service station food.

How two faced the politicians will be reflected in their response to Dave's deal. My money is on every single one including Dave backing it. The Polish PM is the only one with the balls to tell it straight; fit in with the bus tour or go ride your bike and risk getting wet if it rains. The rest want us to pay our share even if we hate it and continue to cause strife because we don't like their plan.

Andy

I came into this thread with my own statement of “pro-Europe, anti-EU”.
Currently I think that if we do end up with a no to the exit vote then it will be “business as usual”; a vote for the status quo.
No change of any significance, carry on in the same old ways.
The current poll within here does indeed show a majority against leaving but it also shows a majority want change; that begs many questions.


There is the aspect of the challenge.
A new start; up for making our own way in the world.
Break out of the current dross of our lives, personal and/or societal and governmental, roll the dice and get on with improving Britain without always looking over our shoulders for what others lay down as the rules.
Raise our sights, have imagination, work harder, yes, but also better – more intelligently with an increased sense of “being in it together”, yep! that well worn phrase. Everyone would have to take on greater personal responsibility for their actions, their inputs, their outputs; none of this would be simple and it would take a great amount of both time and effort.
To do this would not be easy, it would need a brand new approach, across many many spheres of activity; we would have to demand that our government changes for a start, if necessary by sacking them – not easy, the way it is set up at present. For instance, the 5 year fixed term for a parliament would have to be changed back to the arrangements of earlier days so that a vote of no confidence within that house would bring about a new election more or less immediately. We have been conned by our own representatives to think that they have tenure, come what may, for a full 5 years.
Similar actions would be necessary in many other aspects, at all levels of government.
It would need a government of national unity, putting party politics on the back burner while the issues are clearly identified and dealt with; in essence the country would be on what is normally referred to as a war footing for an indeterminate length of time.
In short, nothing would be unthinkable in dealing with the best interests of the UK; for instance, a federal structure to deal with the Scots' wish to leave the UK. However, if they do so confirm that wish then so be it – there would be no point in a pressed nation continuing to drain our stamina with constant complaints. A nation that decides by referendum to check out of the EU could only agree that those who wish to leave the UK have the right to do just that.


Leadership will be needed and it may be in short supply at first, going by the standard of politicians we see at present; not many of the current crop show any real motivation beyond their own personal careers – in short, statesmanship is currently in short supply.
Those in the shadows who have capability would need to step forward, speak up and see off those they know who have been in place merely for their own selfish, self-aggrandising interests.


To do this would also show an extraordinary level of leadership to the remainder of the European nations; arguably they would draw heart from a UK decision to leave and take up their own challenges within their countries thereby building their own better futures.
We would be, should be, respected for having taken the decision and, thereby, taken the lead in a new deal for all of Europe that wishes to reform.
Necessary trade arrangements and similar technical data would flow there from.


The alternative is what?
Another round of financial crisis is on the way in any case; when we are told the story that we are a rich country it is conveniently forgotten that the whole edifice is based on a mountain of debt.

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Dave

You think the financial crisis was the fault of the EU and not a rotten, corrupt and completely unregulated and irresponsible financial industry. You really believe that the UK has been held back by its EU membership rather than an entrenched ruling class and total commitment to the failed economic model of neo-liberalism?

I wonder if you have taken in by the propaganda that we 'maxed out the nations credit card', like so many. This was nothing but a lie to bring in purely ideological attack on public services otherwise known as austerity (not for the rich though, their benefits have not been affected).

Nation States with central banking are built on debt. Money is debt. Government borrows money to spend on infrastructure and state services and gets it back through selling bonds and taxation. When the 08 crash happened the UK had relatively low debt, compared to other successful EU states.

Then Austerity was brought in and our economy has been stagnant since while the deficit (the money paid to service the debt - anyone know to whom it is paid?) has exploded. Thoroughly discredited elsewhere, Osbourne and whoever tell him what to do push it though, probably just out of pure contempt for the likes of you and I, and pretty much everyone else who isn't filthy rich.

Look at the debt of Germany, Japan or the USA, or any other G8 nation and tell me they are in credit. A mountain of national debt means nothing in a strong economy, it's a problem when the debt can't be serviced, because a sluggish economy reduces income from taxation and a tanking economy means high risk bonds thus the government has to sell them cheaper for higher rates of return. When all these things come together you end up with something like Greece, though certainly, it seems there was more to that just that.

On a side note, If we want to talk about power and sovereignty - go read about the history of central banking - especially during the formative years of the US and the Fed. States who can't control their own supply of money for the betterment of society gave up their sovereignty when they handed the supply of money over to the bankers. Lots of talk about the EU being broken but not much on fractional reserve banking and central banking and who our financial system really benefits. Wonder why?

No.

And everything else you wrote in your last post is over in this thread:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...c-crisis-59853

and has been for about the last 4 years.

As before, the alternative is what??

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Dave

An alternative model of banking or of our economic system in general? I believe reintroducing something resembling the Glass Steagall act, reevaluating who central banking works for, bringing in true progressive taxation, working on total transparency in government, and declaring 'war' on inequality would be a good start. Also if you already know everything I wrote why are you still talking about national debt as though it was somehow affected by the EU?

Not challenging that you know the region, but you claimed (by implication) that the Wirral had one of the largest migrant populations in the UK, largest chinese towns, oodles of eastern Europeans, Spanish, Italians, etc., whereas you were really talking about Liverpool.

Which is not the Wirral.

You do recall I was talking about the Wirral and not Liverpool?

In this context sovereignty is the ability of the UK to govern itself and the UK Parliament being the supreme power. It's not a case of losing it, more the case we have currently already lost it and wish to regain it.

Sovereignty has been gradually eroded since minor points of the Treaty of Rome, the worst incident being the Maastricht Treaty. If you want to find out more, I'd suggest you google 'maastricht sovereignty'.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I haven't.

Take a look at my reference thread; the last 6 weeks of postings is enough, in this context (I summarised the whole earlier 4 years about then).
See what you think.

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Dave

I think that the Sovereignty people are talking about is the UK being governed (rightly or wrongly) by the UK elected members and not by the Un-Elected Eurocrats in Brussels. We vote people in to run the country and if they don't do the job well then we have a choice to vote in someone else at the given time. This choice is not given to us in the EU and rules/laws which may be good for one member of the EU may not be good for others.

As for becoming the 51st State of the US, , I would rather stay in the EU

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

As far as I knew we vote in European MP's and the system is more or less based on parliamentary democracy, no? How is the EU not democratic? EU citizens no more have a say in voting in the 'eurocrats' any more than we have voting in our civil service.

About the same way that the UK is not democratic, but that's the short answer.

Consider the EC*, the ECB and the roles of the "5 Presidents", especially the "Eurogroup" of financial ministers, as subsidiary replies.


* For clarity, the EC is identifed in here: https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e...munities_e.htm
(i.e. the Commission)

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Dave

From earlier in this thread...

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Well... going on our past and present UK political leaders we may as well have a meercat to run our country.



But saying that he will probably use his 2 for 1 best friend cinema ticket to dump his front bench and invite Obama instead

Sorry.. a bit off topic but couldn't resist it

Can you point to what EU legislation accommodates this and how this has given Merkel undue influence? Otherwise it's just hyperbolic - And as far as
I knew the UK has only taken in 20,000 from Syria?

You should read the Daily Mail.

Millions of them are here illegally already. Millions more are just waiting to get there. They're all heavily armed rapists and most of them are also carrying machine guns, selling drugs to children and raping old women.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

You've totally missed the reasoning. If there was EU legislation giving her the power it would be democratic. But there isn't, therefore it is undemocratic. Nein?

Merkel has undue influence due to Germany's role as paymaster of euroland. This is not democracy. Read Germany's power polarises Europe.


Nowt to do with democratic processes.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)