Boycott Asda and Marks and Spencer is an easy call.
They have been short sighted enough to do the bidding of our PM, whereas other food suppliers have seen fit to stay out of the arguments.

This letter, printed today, is signed off by 1/3 of the UKs' largest corporations which leaves another 2/3 with enough sense to have some level of regard for their customers rather than pander to the government of the day.

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Dave

Quite so.
Underwhelmed has to be a euphemism in this context.
e.g.
"Since 1996 Britain has opposed 72 motions put forward by the council of ministers and has been outvoted every time.That is 72-0. and those motions have now become UK law.
So much for being at the heart of Europe, and there is our oft quoted "voice in Europe".
British MEPs voted against 576 eu proposals between 1996 & 2014. 485 were passed and became law."
- an abstract from elsewhere; we all need to do our own research.


You are not alone, nor rare even; "tough love" or more of the same?

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Dave

Will people vote for what's good for the country, or will they only be looking after number one? The £300,000 per person claims from the SNP during the Scottish referendum were a classic example of trying to influence people through money.

The trouble with democracy is that everyone gets a say in the referendum and I'd wager the vast majority of the population are terribly ill-informed compared to those who have contributed (both continue and leave) on this thread.

Many people in the UK don't read newspapers, so won't get much information that way, instead they will be fed sound bites on TV news. My own feeling is that those who have looked at the topic in some detail now are tending towards being 'leave' voters but I suspect the referendum will end up in favour of 'continue'.

__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Once we get past this initial phase of in-fighting of the political parties (well, one in particular), and the stage-managed letters written to the MSM, then we should get down to some informed discourse in the UK.

e.g.
A feasible model for the future of the UK lies some way between Japan (manufacturing and industrial capability) and Singapore (services).
Forget the fatuous, strawman, comparisons with Norway and Switzerland.

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Dave

What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

Food for thought, whether you agree or not.

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

Good! UK papers are owned by five anti-EU, right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

Your reference lecturer has a project funded by
"UK Bologna experts are a European Commission funded team", from https://pure.york.ac.uk/portal/en/pr...b7a60a%29.html

Apart from that, his publlications are related to the EU aspiration for a CSDP (see his data in the University website for more detail) and a standing defence force.

"What did the EU ever do for us" implies that we are not capable as a nation: we can't possibly stand on our own because the EU does everything for us - see George Orwell, 1984 for more about that line of thought.

The figure of 57% trade with the EU may be out of date; others are quoting less than 50% trade with the EU - but, anyway, trade won't stop when the Germans want to continue exporting their cars to the UK.
It is the case that the other nations in Europe sell more products to the UK than we manage to sell into the continental market - in or out, we need to improve on our exports in the years to come to earn our way in the globalised world.

As one scenario (at worst if Germany refuses to sell its' VWs etc here) UK car customers would have to buy more vehicles from the Honda facility in Swindon, the Toyota factory near Derby or the world-beating Nissan factory near Sunderland.
(All owned by the Japanese).

Nevertheless, I am certainly prepared to read anything and everything over the next 4 months while judging, in the main, by what people do and not so much by what they say.
The discourse has only just started.

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Dave

All depends on if you are buying or selling.

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Dave

Funny old thing, but our PM turns out today to talk to a group of O2 employees (who might have been better off at their desks, working).
O2 signed the letter referenced earlier, along with BT as just one more telecomms behemoth.
That's the same O2 that is 100% owned by the Spanish company Telefonica - no FUD factor therein was intended by our PM I guess.
It came over as another of the "safer, stronger, better off" speeches.

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Dave

Commentary elsewhere says that there was no exit poll for the Scottish referendum and begs the question of "why not?".
It is known that exit polls are by far the most accurate prediction of the likely result.

Something to watch out for with the next referendum.

Meanwhile, the UK civil service that is supposed, traditionally, to be "neutral" is likely to be used by the current UK government to state a particular case.
(the chief of the civil service has announced that it can't work for those ministers who take an "out" stance).

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Dave

I agree that citing the one of 5 permanent seats on the UNSC that we hold at present would have been better found under the heading of "sovereignty".

However, we do carry wide ranging influence that will certainly impact on how we can negotiate for anything in the future:

The Council of Europe for instance.
47 Member States


+ the OECD

+ the OSCE

To name a few more international bodies.

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Dave

So we hold it, even though we're in the EU? What's your point?

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

We are a world power; much of Europe is not.
(We have held that seat from before we joined the EU of course).

Diplomacy rules, in a sound bite.
However, the EU has aspirations to undertake its' own full-blown version of diplomacy backed up with a standing defence force and all the other accoutrements of a single nation state joined in ever-closer-Union.

Still, Lord Dannatt along with various other retirees from the UK military says it is all OK, so it must be so.

__________________
Dave

So, it's neither a reason to stay in nor a reason to leave.

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

IMHO its a reason not to be scared of leaving.

Our G8 economy and supposed Nuclear supposed deterrent lets us choose between going out in the big wide world and trying to differentiate ourselves or staying as one of many in the EU. Belgium for example would remain swamped by anything France and Germany do, so having some sort of input makes much more sense for them.

Is the UK, or does the UK want to be, a Switzerland or Norway or do we want to be a Luxembourg or Belgium? We seem to have failed as a potential France or Germany because we don't play the EU games that well.

Andy