Cameron doesn't matter, he doesn't have any power. He's just a PR man and a mediator for the people who put him there. The out crowd speak of sovereignty and power as though more than a semblance of democracy exists in the UK. Just look at the smear campaign against Milliband or Corbyn or the two or so million voters for UKIP who got one MP. Thinking that leaving the EU will change this is absurd, it will only make it worse.

The referendum is the product of a decade or two of negative press and EU bashing by the personal press corps of Murdoch, Barcley, Desmond and Rothermere. You think these lot want what's best for the British people or the future of our country?

It's tempting to vote to stay out just to see who the Tory Press corps blame next for immigration, rising cost of living and sharp decline in wages, inequality and all the other evils they've left at the door of the EU, which are in fact just the logical conclusion of pure free market fundamentalism.

Personally I wonder what's the use of a referendum when public opinion is shaped and framed by a handful of people? Will the UK's problems go away by walking away from Europe? Do you really trust men like Boris Johnson, Murdoch or Gove to speak for you? For me the out campaign is about fear and lies not hope.

Well you're obviously angry, but some of what you write doesn't follow through. Cameron got where he is firstly by being elected as an MP by his constituents, and secondly being elected as PM by the Conservative MPs. Does he have power? Well a good chairman gets action by pulling a board of directors together and any PM who went and did his own thing without the backing of the cabinet wouldn't last very long.

Yes, UKIP and SNP got about the same number of votes yet the SNP got 50 MPs and UKIP got one. It's the way our rather flawed 'first past the post' system works, however in 2011 the UK population decided to continue with that system rather than the 'alternative vote' method. Deciding things in this manner is democracy even though you may not agree with the outcome.

Many in the Conservative Party have been lukewarm about Europe for decades, the decision to put the referendum in the Conservative manifesto was to placate those MPs, not because of some press pressure.

I agree with your first sentence. Most voters haven't bothered to do any research of their own and yes, their opinion will be shaped by a handful of people. This worries me.

On the other hand, do you really trust Cameron, Osborne, et al to portray the facts? For me the IN campaign is about FUD.

__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

How so?
Please refer to my post of a few hours ago for 33 pages of positive plans.

Meanwhile, here is something to cheer you:
The International Rescue Committee: A Trojan Horse of the Globalists? | UK Column
David M has appeared on UK TV by video link from his international HQ to speak about the referendum.
There are no prizes for deducing his POV.

__________________
Dave

A somewhat interesting insight into how to negotiate like the EEAS do it (yes, I haven't heard of this EEAS before, but we all see them on the world stage):
Empire Building Under The Radar: How Europe Uses Its External Action Service | UK Column

__________________
Dave

Good points, I would agree on several of them. I certainly don't trust Cameron or Osbourne, they're micromanagers who were groomed for leadership. I believe they couldn't care less about the UK.

The FPTP vote was deeply regrettable indeed. I don't believe you can have a functioning democracy when half the citizenry are told what to think by a crinkled Australian with US residency and the non-dom tax dodger 'Lord' Rothermere who lives in Monaco.

You're no doubt right about the referendum coming about to assuage the old Tory backbenchers rather than the media corps vilifying and scapegoating the EU. It bears a resemblance to the success of Trump in the US. The chickens coming home so to speak.

And the three big "IN" campaigns are all funded by Goldman sachs and JP morgan......who of course would have the best interests of the British people at heart and not that little city within a city full of fraudsters !!!

All this chit chat about in or out. Is it only me who can see. No matter what way the vote goes', we will be in. What the PM is asking. With the in or out vote is. If out. It give's the Prime Minister a mandate to get a better deal to re join. If we leave, as some one said. We will be back.
John933

__________________
To buy petrol in Europe. Pull up at station. Wait. Get out a 20 Euro note, then ask someone to fill up the bike. Give person money. Ride away. Simple.

Could you provide evidence for that? And if so, I would agree - Goldman Sachs apparently cooked the books so Greece qualified for EU membership, a disaster and they cooked the books so Osbourne et al could flog off our Royal Mail and cost us billions. They are elitist institutions that have zero accountability or morality. (Though remember it was the UK gov that opposed the 'Robin Hood' bank levy which the EU tried to bring about).

One has to decide for herself, I've looked at EU policies (and provided examples here) and along with my general ideas about the world I think we're better off remaining in and working with our European partners to improve the EU. It's no good looking at what Goldman Sachs or Murdoch want, they're only out for their own interests.

But some of my reasons are selfish too - I like being an EU citizen, I like the idea I can move, work, travel and if needed, collect welfare in other EU countries. I like the idea my kids could escape the £9'000k p/a tuition fees. I think more choice is better. I think the UK has done very well from free movement within the EU.

For me no one has been able to point out just why we ought to leave the EU or what is fundamentally wrong with it - honestly I'd like to know, maybe I'm just uninformed!

For me the Brexit argument goes like this; "don't worry we'll have all the benefits of EU membership, free movement, access to the common market, etc but we won't have to pay for it", which makes me question why leave the EU and if this is really a realistic proposition. I think the EU are going to be pretty unforgiving If we leave. Why should we have all the benefits without the costs?

What's more I'm not convinced in the slightest that leaving the EU will solve immigration, or save the NHS (seriously as if men like Gove, Lansely et al give a **** about the NHS) or dampen the looming trans-atlantic trade deal, etc. Things will only get worse, climate change, mass migration, resource wars and middle eastern instability, unprecedented inequality and corporate unaccountability, these won't pass over the UK simply because we back out and walk away from Europe. If anything, I feel we'll be in less of a position to influence them. We're no longer an island.

The only certainty for leaving that I can see is it'll be Boris versus Corbin rather than Osbourne versus Corbin.

__________________
Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

If that is more than just a piece of rhetoric then you really are not reading the narrative that is posted in here, in which case it would be your loss:-

[QUOTE=Walkabout;532389]The above is the short version and provides a start point; much more to come.

__________________
Dave

Me neither.

Feedback is a gift.

__________________
Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

Got this which four clicks on google......not hard to find info on both sides of the argument, you just have to go looking !!

JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs fund Britain's pro-Europe referendum group - Business Insider

So bankers are bad. Bankers want remain in the EU. Remaining in the EU is bad. Is that the argument?

__________________
Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

After the utter failure of the renegotiations, I'm now pro-Brexit.

All this bollocks about us having a say in Europe was shown to be just what it really is. I think we looked like Oliver twist asking for another bowl of soup and we came away with nothing but words.

It was an event of squabbling, indecision, back stabbing and political tantrums.

I don't want to be part of that circus anymore.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

It was certainly Goldman Sachs that signed off the accounts that were used to justify the entry of Greece to the Euro currency; much has been written about that in financial commentary.

Many of the current governors of the central banks have Goldman Sachs in their career/CV.

__________________
Dave