Walkabout, I am sure the late George C. (as per his entertaining video you recently posted) would have enjoyed the other than one's own hand (quoted above) reference/prositution but I have no hope that ChrisFS would.
So here is my heart felt message to ChrisFS:

"In fact, groups are probably formed by mutual disagreement instead of mutual agreement and are held together by that disagreement."

I am still reflecting on your - The vision of the EU, for the EU - post and will rspond soon.

C-yaaaaa
xfiltrate

DEUTSCHE BANK: The ECB is on course to destroy the eurozone

"Bad businesses survive while good businesses don't invest" - a simple enough sentence from this critique of the ECB by a bank that is often considered, itself, to be on the brink.

__________________
Dave

The link below says more about the similarities, and contrasts, of the USA and the EU - all from nearly 5 years ago and totally relevant today.
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2...-euroland.html

It also relates to my latest post above about how the Euro is performing; it all comes down to "Sovereign currency" and the new economic perspectives article certainly puts that into perspective.

There has to be a single nation of Europe for the Euro to continue to exist - "whatever it takes" said the President of the ECB.
(the USA achieved that by means of a civil war).

__________________
Dave

What most of you fail to realise is that the average man or woman on the street is not equipped, qualified or educated to a level that would allow them to make major economic decisions on behalf of the whole country. Speaking from a personal point of view, I perform a 'professional' role in my career. I am reasonably intelligent but you may as well ask me how many people live on Saturn as ask me about the definitive facts of the Brexit campaign. There are some folk who have an idea what might happen if we left the EU but even they are not sure.
You can flout all the opinions you want guys, it just depends on who wrote them and what they want you to believe. That doesn't give anyone the right to appoint themselves as experts and force their opinions on others.
Leaving decisions to those in power is no guarantee that the right choice will be made but it's a darn sight better than leaving it to the public who have proved time and time again that they don't know what they're doing. Give the public a vote on moral issues but not major economic matters.

And that's why I say it's a load of bollox and a dangerous weapon to put in the hands of people who don't know how to use it with any confidence. Some of you are posting opinions that you clearly believe in. That doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong. It is people like you who tend to be the most dangerous in society. You create a storm, add in a few fear factors, beat others to death with your opinions and all in the hope you will get what you want. Unless you are a proven expert in some relevant matter perhaps some of you should be quiet, there are too many people who can be influenced by your tripe.

What on earth makes you think there are definative economic facts? When have they ever predicted anything? Find me the billionaire who bet on Uranium futures the day the oil price doubled and now works at the LSE or bank of England because it owes it to his fellow man to use his skills for the good of all.

This is a morale decision. Should we tell Brussels to do one and Westminster to pay us the attention we are due, or do they know what is better for us? Are we prepared to choose our own path and risk failure, or risk a mass failure with Europe? Do the Elite need bringing down a peg?

What annoys me is that the out campaign have been drawn into this silly game. Freedom with risk is out, different risk is in. The pity is the Tories have managed to back both horses and the rest are playing tiddlywinks and will simply declare they really wanted "insert-name" to win.

I predict if we leave MP's will vote themselves a payrise. If we don't leave I predict they will vote themselves one anyway. Bet the bookies (who can predict results when there are actual facts, but don't bothere when there aren't) won't give me odds worth the shoe leather to find out.

Andy

I'm not suggesting there are any definitive economic facts, hence the point I made that it would be pointless to ask me. I don't see where I said that but if anyone is going to make decisions then leave it to those who are perhaps maybe on a good day without any wind or rain just a little bit more likely to have an idea of what might be the right path to take.

Brexit is far from a moral decision however it has been hijacked and turned into one by idiots who shout the loudest and rabble rouse the average person who has no idea about the consequences. It is an economic matter.
A diluted version of this hype is the England football team when a major tournament comes along. The press, media and every man on the street in every pub in the land says they're gonna win it, yet somehow the team usually gets sent home with it's tail between it's legs after dire performances.

I don't know if we are better to be in than out or vice versa but I sure ain't gonna seek counsel from other folk who are so far up their own arses they think their point is the only one.

Xfil,
I just clicked on my earlier link and it works fine - if it is still an issue, it is blog number 16 in the primer for Modern Monetary Theory in this link:
Modern Monetary Theory Primer - New Economic PerspectivesNew Economic Perspectives
(that is a great read itself - a whole book, in effect, about MMT).

My PM inbox is cleared now (no conspiracies, it just filled up) so all of my grateful readers can communicate again.


As an aside, it is you guys in the States who publish among the best of the stuff on the web (sure, there is junk also but most people on here can discern the difference).

__________________
Dave

A couple of points:

A similar argument has been used throughout UK history to deny the vote to women or anyone other than those who own land, plebs et al.

It works OK for Switzerland; by your argument the UK is backward compared with countries, such as Switzerland, that use referenda extensively. It's the same as the line taken by some with the theme that the UK cannot govern itself.

__________________
Dave

Increasingly looks like a stitch up within the Tory party which grabbed the leadership of both campaigns.

At Culloden the landed gentry sent half of their sons to fight for the government forces and half to fight for the bonnie Prince, thereby ensuring the continuity of the family gene pool and the land ownership.

It is a standard tactic; in this case, without real blood on the floor, they wlll all be forgiven after 23 June and it is then "business as usual"?

__________________
Dave

We have not had peace in Europe for 70 years, what about Yugoslavia, what about Northern Ireland, What about the Falklands (not in Europe I know, but part of the sovereign territory of a European country)? Was the cold war really peace? And European countries have been involved in numerous other wars, including starting them. A British soldier has died in action almost every year since WW2.

here is a list of wars in europe since WW2, it doesn't include police actions and peace keeping, such as Northern Ireland

Greek Civil War (Greece)
Invasion of Czechoslovakia (USSR)
Ten-Day War (Slovenia vs. Yugoslavia)
Croatian War of Independence (Croatia vs. Yugoslavia)
Georgian Civil War
East Prigorodny Conflict (Ingush militia vs. Russia)
War of Transnistria (Transnitria vs. Moldavia)
Bosnian War (Bosnia vs. Yugoslavia)
Albanian Rebellion
First Chechen War
War of Dagestan
Second Chechen War
Russo-Georgian war
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine
2014 Crimean crisis
War in Donbass
2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine


Europe has enjoyed many years of peace previously, notably after the Napoleonic wars.

remaining in the EU actually represents one of the greatest threats to our security since the end of the cold war.

__________________
1990 Landcruiser H60. Full rebuild completed 2014

This scared the crap out of me!! A facinating and informative insight to the current political situation.

We are about to make the biggest single decision of our lives, our children's lives, and their children's lives, don't get it wrong!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

__________________
1990 Landcruiser H60. Full rebuild completed 2014

We can't be wrong, the winners will write (and even re-write) the history. Look at all those silly Americans, Indians, Texans and Irish breaking away from the biggest Empire in the world and heading off to certain economic misery etc.

Andy

The UK has not declared war since 1939 and is unlikely to do so again for the foreseeable.

But, it has engaged in conflicts worldwide, as exemplified by the previous list and has lost servicemen, and women, to active service in every year since 1939, except during 1963 - see the national arboretum memorial in Staffordshire for the details.

In part answer to your questions, those european forces which are capable of projecting force do it; many european nations do not have that capability which may be why the EU wishes to develop a common armed forces to match it's embryonic foreign policy* (you do have to relate to the fact that there is such a thing as the latter in existence now and there are EU "embassies" scattered around the world including one for London).

* the current head of this EU diplomatic corp (their description, not mine) is an ex-member of the Italian communist party and yet another non-elected appointee.

__________________
Dave

I think we should all say 'feck it' ......and run away and drink !

I'm up for that

War is never going to be like 1914 or 1814 again. As soon as a major power is an obvious loser things get very very bad . Instead there will be cold war, hacking, proxy support of terrorists etc. The Russians (for want of an example Bogeyman) will find it just as easy to support nut jobs in the EU as out until the people all feel European. So far there doesn't seem much progress in making all the people of Belgium, the Spanish Peninsula, the island of Ireland etc. feel like that, which leaves open the possibility that going smaller and not having responsibility for other peoples minorities might a better option. If the EU sends a British regiment under a German commander to shoot Catalans I wonder how European we would all feel?

Andy