Originally Posted by Paul Wohlfarth

I'm relatively new to HUBB, so I should probably confess two (or three) things about myself first:

1. As I recently broke a few bones in an accident, I currently got way too much time, which is probably why I read through way too many comments here - no offense!

2. I am German by birth and citizenship (living snd working in the UK for some 5 years now), so I'm not unbiased to all of this but can perhaps contribute to somewhat of an outside view on this.

3. I am an economist and, having previously worked in finance, am currently doing a PhD in international monetary economics. So I can say a few things about the economic arguments being made.

I can understand the emotional case people make for Brexit in the UK to a certain degree. Britain has a very proud tradition of the oldest parliament in the world among with the pioneers of free markets and human rights, and it has defended this continent against evil in some of its darkest times, which was appreciated by the turn of history with the loss of an empire. Given all that, advise coming from the other side of the channel is understandably not always appreciated.

But then there is the reality of international policy in a globalising world: We don't live in a colonial world any more and and we face a whole bunch of problems that require international cooperation. And for that we need to move to a new understanding of governance, one based on international cooperation. Where we negotiate international treaties that are then defining our understanding on how we work and live together, trade, travel; how we protect ourselves from abuse, fraud, our consumers from malpractice etc. Since these treaties are being negotiated, one will have to commit to compromises and, yes, it implies a loss of sovereignty.

Why won't the UK be able to protect ourselves? We have done so in the past and will do so in the future. We will also be able to do all the other things you have mentioned....without hinderance from the EU

Then there is the economics of it. The biggest case seems to be made about migration. Europe seems to be overrun by refugees, in constant crisis and as a consequence everyone seems to want to the UK. First, let's establish that there is a difference between a refugee and an economic migrant and that Europe is by no means overrun by refugees, but rather behaving like a giant ***** in the light of crises in our direct neighbourhood, that we have in many cases at least contributed to. Let's also establish that roughly as many Brits live on the continent as vice versa. But more importantly, that immigration is a good thing! And yes, even in low wage segment.

If people want to come and work and can give something to the country then fine. BUT what is unacceptable is when people come and live in my country and rip of the state benefit system...having the cheek to claim child benefit for a child that is not even in the country...then the EU not letting us doing anything about it, what a load of crap

A paper on the economic effects of the balkan refugee wave on the Danish labour market was published this year! Interestingly, since it used panel data one could "follow" specific cohorts of sample individuals and in away track the careers of people. It turned out that, yes, migration did increase competitive pressure in the lower wage segments. But, because the Danish labour market is very flexible, people reacted to this pressure simply by moving occupations to more productive jobs. This led to an increase in wages and employment throughout the whole labour market spectrum. Other research is usually inconclusive or shows insignificant effects for low-wage migration. But I don't know of any recent reputable paper that shows unambiguously significant negative effects of migration. So what matters isn't migration but the labour market structure.

Migration matters when you are only a small island...but that doesn't seen to bother some people. When are the EU going to get it in to there thick skulls..we can only fit so many people on our rock. Unless of course if the plan is to turn the UK into a massive urban zone

Then, there seems an odd conviction of the British that the continent would be economically dragging along. As a matter of fact recent figures suggest that the UK is actually growing below average in the EU, that average income, taking living costs into account, is about average, that overall welfare as measured by the HDI is about average. Yes, the Euroarea is a bit of a pain but given the crises it was confronted with it is doing alright - there were crucial reforms to banking supervision, and, although not complete, a banking union is almost standing. The banking sector has consolidated (not just in Europe) and public finances in most countries have improved. But, yes, there still is a long way to go. But then, we were hit by quite some crises, and the UK has a quite a bit of a public deficit as well I believe. So no exception here.

Its not all a bed of roses....Greece have nearly had it, and I for one are fed up of bailing them out. Also Italy may be going in the same direction. Wonder if that would have happened if the hadn't been in the mighty EU!?

Now, trade. Well, it's actually quite simple. The EU is a customs union. If you leave it you gotta pay tariffs. Thinking that you just simply adopted a no tariff free-trade regime sounds nice, but is also incredibly naive. Do you really think the government would simply scrap all tariffs? Come on! Think Tata, to name just one example. But also examples of tariffs or embargo's used as tools for foreign policy? Surely, the EU's protectionist policies were often horrendous - especially agricultural subsidies. But that has lost more and more in significance. In fact the often dreaded common agricultural subsidies took more than 70% of the EU budget in 1982. Now it's just about a third. When it comes to trade, don't fool yourselves. Yes, Germans will still be selling cars, and French food to the UK but it'll be more expensive and hence less. But more importantly, they'll be all too keen locking up their service sectors and that'll be a real blow to finance in the UK.

Yes we might have to pay a tariff to trade with the EU. But we may get cheaper tariffs from others countries as part of the WTO. We would also be able to do this without the EU telling us who we can and can not trade with and or undercutting our Steel with crap from other countries. I think there are more positives to trading outside the EU, other countries manage fine. Take a look a Switzerland they are one of the if not the richest country in the EU and oh look, they are not even a member

Regulation. Yes, there is silly regulation coming from Brussels. But guess what, you'll find that everywhere and Brussels bureaucracy is actually relatively small considering the size of the single market. Most of it actually considers norms and consumer protection. I actually appreciate that electrical appliances need to be tested before they can be sold and that food needs to be labeled. Also, the EN norms I think were quite useful. Yes, indeed, you can go on measuring things in stones, pounds, yards and inches, but sorry... it isn't very practicable. Can you give me one good reason why we should have different power plugs? Emission controls I believe are a good thing as well. Or the ban of certain pesticides or animal protection regulations when it comes to a lot of farming ect. But more importantly, you'll have to meet all these regulations anyway, if you want to trade with the EU.

Anyone would think that we as a country never managed to do anything before the Eurocrates started to take over....well..we managed fine thanks and funny enough we will manage again. Why shouldn't we have different plugs!? They were there long before the EU and are you going to pay for it? Or will that be a grant from the EU (which is not really a grant because all we are getting back is money we put in and quite a lot less) If people don't like the plugs they can always go back home to the land of round 2 pin plugs. Europe could change their plugs! Its a pain to carry the adaptors!!!

Well, then, is the EU democratic? Yes, of course it is! All legislation that comes from Brussels has to go through the European parliament and the European Council. Actually, the Lisbon Treaty crucially strengthens the parliament and enabled it to draft own legislation to become the main legislative chamber. The EU Commission is elected by the parliament in the same way every government is and was clearly running campaigns with candidates for the presidency. When just less then half of the population is casting a vote but a clear majority is complaining about a lack of democracy, well whose fault is this then? It seems to me, that the reason people perceive the EU as undemocratic is because national decisions can be overruled. Well, but then a majority of Europeans was against it. That's democracy!

Why should national decisions be overruled!? Who gave them the right to tell another country what they can and can not do? They are getting too big for their boots.
How can it be a democracy? (a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives I did not elect or choose the people who are running the EU, did you? I don't really have a clue who they are, nor do I care. They are just a lot of interfering people who are trying to justify their position. So if they lay out on the table what their plans are the same as other people wanting to rule countries do..and let the people decide who they want then that would be more democratic

Jurisdiction: The European Charter of Human rights was essentially following a blueprint of an understanding of universal human rights drafted British lawyers after WWII. It enshrined the right to a fair trial, privacy, freedom of speech among other things. It's exercised at the European Courts of Justice in Strasbourg. The UK appoints one of the judges and one advocate general for it. Theresa May has recently criticised it for its rulings on anti terrorism laws and its enforcement on the right for privacy. But frankly, the way the UK government dealt with these rights was at times appalling and people should be more concerned about this. Today I actually saw a discussion on this on the BBC: A "constitutional expert" in defence of Brexit argued against the ECJ because it weren't British judges ruling there. What a condescending thing to say!

Yep scrap that too, then it won't cost my country millions of pounds getting rid of scroats from my country who are quite clearly inciting terrorism and causing issues just because they think they will be treated unfairly when the go home or get extradited,,,that is not our problem and they should have thought about that before hand. Again who are they to dictate?

But frankly what I found quite surprising is to find so much Euroscepticism on this platform. Of all the people, you are the ones benefitting from it. You travel a lot across Europe and clearly benefit from open borders. You only need one currency in Europe and wouldn't have to deal with a multitude of exchange rates. And I bet many of you got holiday homes in Europe or even live abroad. Not to mention cheap airfares. So, you can't be serious when you want to vote for a lot of hassle to come just for a bit of national pride!

We benefit really well, high taxes, we can't trade with who we want, we pay a lot of money to be a member of a rubbish club then gives us a little bit back saying its a grant from the EU! It also gives a lot of it way to help other countries in the EU..well if you can't cut it then you shouldn't be a member. It sticks its nose in where time after time its not wanted
Yeah the travel is good, we don't need a single currency (why) I change money a lot so getting Euro instead of Thai Baht is not a hardship
YES I will be voting OUT
If folk don't like it they can always go back to where they came