Originally Posted by backofbeyond

In the past the Japanese manufacturers used to bring out a "wild" version of a new bike that would gain some kind of notoriety and then successively soften it each year but the bike would still sell on first year reputation. Harley seem to have done that with their "software"; the original bike of choice for the real 1%-ers is now some kind of reflected glory lifestyle statement for many others. In many cases it's not so much a means of transport as home decor on the interstate. You are how your ride looks / sounds.

Originally Posted by mollydog

Question for HD was ... do we disown these hoodlums? Or embrace them? HD embraced them ... but at a safe distance and it came later, in the 1980's.

By the 80's the community began to shift in a major way. Old guys were dying off, Baby Boomers were coming in. After the Evo motor came along in 1985, things really changed. Harley's got reliable and the Lawyers, Dentists and Real Estate developers began their Mid-Life Crisis rides. This still goes on today.

This group of RUBS (Rich Urban Bikers) grew the brand to huge proportions and made riding a Harley an acceptable activity. (It's OK dear, they just look like Pirates, they're not real! ... )

Originally Posted by mollydog

Harley culture has an interesting history going back to the 1920's or so in this country. But the more interesting bit ... and the bit that still influences "the look" of today's group of HD Weekend Pirates, really started in earnest after WW2 with returning Vets looking for some thrills.

Someone mentioned the Hollister, California event (inspiration for Brando's
The Wild One.) In typical Hollywood style, the event was overblown in the film but still fun to watch even today. Brando's "Johnny" is emblematic of the One Percenter, his character was copied buy dozens of tacky biker movies throughout the 1960's.

But there were real riding groups (Gangs?) and they were there well before the films. Where do you think Hollywood got the idea? From real biker gangs.

I grew up in L.A. and saw my fair share of REAL Hell's Angels, Statin Slaves and Mongols. Up close and personal. This was in early 60's but the gangs were around before that. But by the 60's they got really strong and organized ... all the while HD was paying attention, but the company was on the rocks, barely surviving at that point. Remember, the Hard Core bikers were the ONLY ones to stand by HD when it was near total failure, then during the dark AMF buy out ... everyone else, old and young wrote HD off. The old folks switched to Honda Gold Wings, young riders went dirt riding or sport riding ... and NO ONE but BIKERS bought HD.

Question for HD was ... do we disown these hoodlums? Or embrace them? HD embraced them ... but at a safe distance and it came later, in the 1980's.

What I find interesting is how Harley-Davidson walked the thin, sharp edge, using the "Bad Ass Biker" image to sell thousands of bikes and hundreds of millions of dollars in riding gear, yet carefully dodged direct connection with actual Biker Gangs. Public relations genius, IMO.

By the 80's the community began to shift in a major way. Old guys were dying off, Baby Boomers were coming in. After the Evo motor came along in 1985, things really changed. Harley's got reliable and the Lawyers, Dentists and Real Estate developers began their Mid-Life Crisis rides. This still goes on today.

This group of RUBS (Rich Urban Bikers) grew the brand to huge proportions and made riding a Harley an acceptable activity. (It's OK dear, they just look like Pirates, they're not real! ... )

One of the more interesting manifestations is how HD culture has expressed itself in countries outside the USA. Like serious bad ass bike gangs in Norway and Sweden ... WTF!!!

Our riding group used to travel to Death Valley twice a year. Did this for 15 years. Nearly every time we go we run into Foreign Riders on (mostly) rented Harley's. Most organized tours.

I've met BIG French and German groups, 20 to 25 riders in each group. They have a ball, all dressed in the nicest HD leather outfits you could imagine ... and ALL ready to party! The Typical Euro tour would be: Fly into Vegas, ride out to Grand Canyon then Death Valley and back to Las Vegas to fly home. Usually 3 to 4 day tour.

Some hard core guys ship their own Harleys over. BIG MONEY. We have even seen a group of Japanese on rented Harley's. (about 8 riders). Also have run into groups from: Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Norway, Denmark, Sweden. Simply amazing. The HD brand does, indeed, have very long legs!

These guys did nothing but buy things. Most organized tours had chase vans (towing spare bike or two) so they could load up on trinkets, just load then into to the 15 passenger vans.

The HD Gang connection is also interesting to me. Books have been written about this ... and some of the HD branding really originates from the gangs. HD try to disavow and distance ... but secretly sit back and chuckle .... and rake in the cash. They've exploited the bad boy image to the max.

Originally Posted by mollydog

Harley culture has an interesting history going back to the 1920's or so in this country. But the more interesting bit ... and the bit that still influences "the look" of today's group of HD Weekend Pirates, really started in earnest after WW2 with returning Vets looking for some thrills.

Someone mentioned the Hollister, California event (inspiration for Brando's
The Wild One.) In typical Hollywood style, the event was overblown in the film but still fun to watch even today. Brando's "Johnny" is emblematic of the One Percenter, his character was copied buy dozens of tacky biker movies throughout the 1960's.

But there were real riding groups (Gangs?) and they were there well before the films. Where do you think Hollywood got the idea? From real biker gangs.

I grew up in L.A. and saw my fair share of REAL Hell's Angels, Statin Slaves and Mongols. Up close and personal. This was in early 60's but the gangs were around before that. But by the 60's they got really strong and organized ... all the while HD was paying attention, but the company was on the rocks, barely surviving at that point. Remember, the Hard Core bikers were the ONLY ones to stand by HD when it was near total failure, then during the dark AMF buy out ... everyone else, old and young wrote HD off. The old folks switched to Honda Gold Wings, young riders went dirt riding or sport riding ... and NO ONE but BIKERS bought HD.

Question for HD was ... do we disown these hoodlums? Or embrace them? HD embraced them ... but at a safe distance and it came later, in the 1980's.

What I find interesting is how Harley-Davidson walked the thin, sharp edge, using the "Bad Ass Biker" image to sell thousands of bikes and hundreds of millions of dollars in riding gear, yet carefully dodged direct connection with actual Biker Gangs. Public relations genius, IMO.

By the 80's the community began to shift in a major way. Old guys were dying off, Baby Boomers were coming in. After the Evo motor came along in 1985, things really changed. Harley's got reliable and the Lawyers, Dentists and Real Estate developers began their Mid-Life Crisis rides. This still goes on today.

This group of RUBS (Rich Urban Bikers) grew the brand to huge proportions and made riding a Harley an acceptable activity. (It's OK dear, they just look like Pirates, they're not real! ... )

One of the more interesting manifestations is how HD culture has expressed itself in countries outside the USA. Like serious bad ass bike gangs in Norway and Sweden ... WTF!!!

Our riding group used to travel to Death Valley twice a year. Did this for 15 years. Nearly every time we go we run into Foreign Riders on (mostly) rented Harley's. Most organized tours.

I've met BIG French and German groups, 20 to 25 riders in each group. They have a ball, all dressed in the nicest HD leather outfits you could imagine ... and ALL ready to party! The Typical Euro tour would be: Fly into Vegas, ride out to Grand Canyon then Death Valley and back to Las Vegas to fly home. Usually 3 to 4 day tour.

Some hard core guys ship their own Harleys over. BIG MONEY. We have even seen a group of Japanese on rented Harley's. (about 8 riders). Also have run into groups from: Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Norway, Denmark, Sweden. Simply amazing. The HD brand does, indeed, have very long legs!

These guys did nothing but buy things. Most organized tours had chase vans (towing spare bike or two) so they could load up on trinkets, just load then into to the 15 passenger vans.

The HD Gang connection is also interesting to me. Books have been written about this ... and some of the HD branding really originates from the gangs. HD try to disavow and distance ... but secretly sit back and chuckle .... and rake in the cash. They've exploited the bad boy image to the max.

Originally Posted by AndyT

I wouldn't discount the effect of celebrities starting to ride Harleys in the 80's either. Once you had everyone from Tom Cruise to Hulk Hogan to Malcolm Forbes riding, that put some distance between H-D and the dirty biker culture.

Originally Posted by mollydog

So, as a result of HD's huge success at reviving an ancient WW2 design, repackaging and modernizing it (very carefully), then pedaling it to a whole generation longing to view life through the rear view mirror and live Walter Mitty/Ronald Reagan/ Cowboy/Wild One fantasies, this illusory lifestyle has crossed over and given birth to Japanese Cruisers, and became their best selling segment FOR YEARS. Thank you Harley-Davidson!

Originally Posted by farqhuar

Why on earth does anyone want to be seen anywhere near a vehicle, whether 4 wheels or 2, that looks 70+ years old?

Originally Posted by farqhuar

This is something I am honestly incapable of understanding.

Why on earth does anyone want to be seen anywhere near a vehicle, whether 4 wheels or 2, that looks 70+ years old?

I first began to take an interest in automotive design when I was 5 years old. As a result, I think the 1959 model year was probably one of the best EVER in US automotive design - forget the tall finned 55/56/57 Chevies and give me the long, low and wide gull winged '59 Impala....

.......What say others?

Originally Posted by farqhuar

This is something I am honestly incapable of understanding. Why on earth does anyone want to be seen anywhere near a vehicle, whether 4 wheels or 2, that looks 70+ years old?

Originally Posted by farqhuar

I first began to take an interest in automotive design when I was 5 years old. As a result, I think the 1959 model year was probably one of the best EVER in US automotive design - forget the tall finned 55/56/57 Chevies and give me the long, low and wide gull winged '59 Impala.

Originally Posted by farqhuar

Same with bikes, I first took an interest in bikes as a 16yo in 1970. Forget the chrome tanked Japanese designs from the '60s and the round tank British machines with their huge chromed badges - instead I wanted the painted square bread box designs from 1970 onwards.

Originally Posted by farqhuar

So for modern day riders to desire bikes that hark back to the '30s and '40s just suggests these owners are sheep rather than following their own sense of style.

What say others?

Originally Posted by AndyT

So the '59 Chevy is the pinnacle of automobile design, but you are a sheep if you prefer a retro styled bike, even if it has modern performance. Okay, got it.

Originally Posted by farqhuar

I don't like "retro style" vehicle design which harkens back to a period earlier than that, which is why I can't understand why riders who are the same age as, or younger than me, do like bikes with a 1940s styling theme.