I'm no expert on this stuff and some of the questions you've asked are ones that I'd like to know the answers to myself. I've listened to what various experts have said at e.g. seminars, lectures etc though and boiled down it seems to be mixed messages. It's the old ask ten experts and get fifteen opinions joke.

What I will chuck into the mix is my experience with punctures. Most of my bikes have - and have had in the past - spoked wheels. So tyres with tubes in them. And as far back as I can remember I've been getting punctures. The picture below was taken in 1971 (!) and we've just spent the night under a motorway bridge in Belgium because I got a puncture. That's me in the background trying to sort it out the next morning.





That incident taught me a lesson because the (rear, fortunately) tyre went suddenly with a loud bang just as we were pulling in from overtaking a truck and we were lucky not to find ourselves scattered all over the carriageway. The lesson - don't mess with your tyres / tubes. That's why I read what's been said about sealing spokes with bathroom sealant or rubber bands or whatever other methods people have tried but, until the technology 'matures' anyway, it won't be for me. My faith is in what I admit is a sub optimal technology (tyres with tubes) but keeping it all in as good a condition and as close to what the original designers intended as I can. If the wheel is designed to take a tubeless tyre (as a couple of my bikes are) then, fine, I'll embrace that, but I'm not picking and mixing - and that includes putting a tube in a tubeless set up. I've asked several experts - tyre company technicians - over the years about using tubes when the tyre is intended for tubeless use and received different opinions. Some say don't do it - the structural ridges inside tubeless tyres abrade the tubes and can lead to a blow out, whereas others have said no problem. So what am I supposed to think if even the experts disagree.

One thing I will say about the traditional tyre + tube + spoked wheel approach is that fixing a puncture at the side of the road isn't as easy as it's made out to be if your tyre is much bigger than, say, a 120 section. I'm sure one or two people here will disagree (Grant ... ) and I've been privileged to watch somebody here do it for real in about 30 mins under an autobahn bridge in the rain in the middle of winter (picture if i can find it (below)) but they belong more in superhero movies than the real world. If you happen to have an unfortunate combination of awkward rim and wide ultra stiff tyre (Excel rim and Michelin Desert comes to mind) you can pretty much forget fixing a flat without help. Even with simpler combinations it's not enough to have studied the process or done it once or twice in your garage. It's a craft skill and needs repetition to keep your abilities sharp. So either get loads of punctures or get none. Now and again is the worst of all worlds.

@Rapax: In the case of plugging a tire with a hose inside, I would not be concerned about destroing the tube with the reamer. The point here would be to ride with tubes, for instance on a tubeless rim conversion - in the event that the rim started leaking, and have the option to do a quick plugging of the tire - and replace the innertube and deal with the plug bit on the inside, both at a more convenient time/location.

@Backofbeyond: When it comes to maturing technology, there are several companies that now sell kits for converting spoked rims to tubeless. Outex being one that offers kits for a wide range of manufacturers' models.

On the Tenere 700 for instance, the rear rim has a hump in it, which would suit tubeless wheels well. The fron does not - yet a lot of T7 owners go ahead with the conversion anyways, reporting no issues in air pressure drop. Others on the other hand report utter failures in trying to get the tires air tight.

The problem with the reports I have read is that no one really reports back how this stuff works long term. Sure some report it has worked well for them for years, but they fail to mention how much, and how hard, they ride different types of terrain and surfaces.

I could see that adjusting the spokes could lead to problems down the road, even if one is told that the kits are made for this.

As for the grouves/humps on tubeless tires are a problem - with the T7 having them and running tubes stock - surely we would have lot's of reports on this being an issue? I have never really studied the inside anatomy of a tubeless spoked rim to really say if there are ridges, etc, that would cause frictional problems, or if they could be solved by a similar kit that one would use to convert a non-tubeless rim to tubless.

In any case, would simply doing a tubeless coversion be a god idea, even if one never intended to ride tubeless - simply to prevent fast leakages and to have the option to plug and continue (dealing with the tube later)? Not sure at all - but it is an interesting idea I wonder if anyone has tried - or have any opinions on.

I have never really struggled to get a tire on and off and dealing with the bead and so forth. Solo, and as a beginner, using only simple tools in the gravel - on my F650GS Dakar - I never had any of the problems many people say they have. Maybe I have just been lucky with the tire/rim combo? Or maybe the many hours spendt on youtube made all the difference? I have no experience with tubeless though, and I would assume that getting the bead to sit well enough to be able to pump it up with a simple pump would be the most difficult part. Here I have seen several tricks - ranging from tightening a strap along the middle circumfrance of the tire (twisting it tight with a screwdriver or the likes) - to using a flamable gas/liquid which is lit and cause an instantanious expansion og a large volume og gas.

I would advice anyone against going on any sort of ride where one readly can't get hold of transport for a bike with flat tires - without first having practiced on one's own setup until success!

Practice would include getting the very same tires completely on and off the very same rim, in the dirt, using only the tools one carries. If you are riding tubeless, you will also have to learn how to plug - i.e. on a worn out tire.

The practice would also include replacing and mending a tube of the same thickness that's on the wheels and/or that one carries as a spare - regardless if you ride tubeless or not. On a trip in the sticks, it is my opinion that you should carry atleast one emergency tube. Where you get one flat, there is a high probability that you can get several - and if all you have is a single spare tube on a tube set up, you are screwed if you don't know how to patch. Many people struggle getting patches to stick - in particular on heavy duty tubes.

In south africa I rode on a dirt road with a lot of thornes - I got three separate puntures, all within the same day, and all within just a few miles. I wished I had tubeless back then, but was very happy that I knew how to mend a tube.

Practice, practice, practice!

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I honestly don't have a problem with alloy wheels.

Tubes are a PITA and I will only tolerate them on a modern bike when the available TT tyres actually give an advantage. On the CB500X I can get TL tyres like K60's that easily exceed the bikes ability. Plugs to fix punctures and rims that retain the tyre instead of blowing out are a huge advantage.

On a full on MX bike with 21-inch front you are already compromised but at least get the tyre choice.

Bikes that come with spoked wheels for fashion reasons and TL tyres with tubes I will simply not buy. Can't plug it, can't break the bead to change the tube. I won't get into mucking about with bathroom sealant.

I sell TPMS. Free advice, avoid external valve mounted. The valve stems are not designed to support the weight and ripping one off will ruin your day. They also tend to be at the cheaper end of the market. If you want Chinese pot metal holding the valve open and containing the air please be ready for the blowout. As these cannot measure temperature they are also less accurate. Legislation will catch up in 2025 or so and internal valve or strap mounted will be standard, so you can bet no one is spending real money on checking and updating these.

Andy

Been searching for something better than the external valve mounted. Not sure about the forum rules, but I'd be interested in seeing what you sell.

Sorry we don't do motorcycle systems, strictly commercial vehicles.

A quick Google would have me looking at the Careud or Kimmiss ones on Amazon. The sensors are standard automotive parts not leftovers from medical equipment.

Personally I don't have one on a bike. On a CV the issues are that there are 14-20 tyres to check and the drivers are universally slack. A blowout where the police close a motorway can wipe out a years profit. We text the transport manager when the temperature rises so the driver can be given clear instructions after they have planned the pre-emptive action. A different scenario from a bike where weight is important and the rider is usually the owner and very much more proactive.

Andy

I hate tubes with a vengeance.

My KTM 690 Enduro is fitted with mousses rather than tubes—I use it for thousands of km per trip with zero problems.

And one of the reasons I bought a KTM 790 Adventure rather than the T700 was the tubeless tyres as standard.

If I had a choice on a bike between 19/17 tubeless wheels on alloys vs 21/18 tubed wheels on spokes, I would choose the 19/17 combo even though it's not as good off road.

Chapter and verse on tubeless conversions from Chris Scott

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Has any one used a second tube . in a tyre to help prevent punctures , i did hear this some time ago. and think it may be a good idea ?
Any ideas ?

You mean Tubliss?

https://youtu.be/X6aBLlma0iE

A clever idea and I think probably a good one for what it was designed for, bicycles and competition machines.

The trouble for travel use is not insignificant IMHO.

Tyre choice remains TT which will ruin your day if it blows out or TL which then makes getting at a failed tubliss tube difficult. You need to add spares and tools to deal with a failed tubliss tube.

Weight and cost

They run hot and are not designed for motorways.

Sizes are sensibly limted to what they've tested.

If Honda said the market wanted spokes and they offered this solution I'd consider it. It'd be third choice after alloys and spokes run into a flange, but certainly better than TL tyres with a tube. Add the current situation where a small company says "not for road use" and I'll give it a miss.

Andy

Well well well, not seen this pic before. I'd say we saw you as the super hero that day I can tell you. Perfect timing, you stopped for us ten mins after we stopped, produced a tube out of your hat, we were back on the road in less than 40 mins, job done..!! Tube in a tube less rim....

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