Hi again,

I didn't "bash everything about the US"... the above letter criticises one thing and one thing only and that is US foreign policy. I have nothing against US citizens although it is a pity that Bush was voted back in despite what he and his "corporatocracy" have done.

Jenny

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Cheers,
Peter.

Europe to NZ 2006-10

Please may I suggest that people stay on topic. The thread was about flags being displayed on your bike.

American foreign policy (and that supported by the UK (my) government) is an emotive topic at the moment. We all have our opinion, but I think this isn't the place for a discussion there of.

Most ordinary people and every biker on this planet I've met (except the gay Canadian in Montreal who took a fancy to me... please don't start on me being homophobic! ) have been great to me.

Maybe we should go out to promote peace and understanding.

Cheers
ChrisB

PS. I agree with the comment by the Belgian chap above: Leave Pietro alone. I understood exactly what he meant. All of us need to examine how well we master our own and other countries' languages.


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TheBrightStuffDotCom

[This message has been edited by chris (edited 18 January 2005).]

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TBS.com

Mr. Moderator, I started this thread, and I was merely commenting on a post that someone had added to the thread I started. My points being that the following statement by Pietro:

"If somebody is so proud of his country that he can not even travel without an American (or any other national) flag, than have the courage and the coherence to face the consequence of his action."

........didn't make alot of sense. I understand that he had a limited sense of English grammar, but still, it didn't make sense. Based on my first thread, I never said that I couldn't handle what happened to me (Pietro's courage comment)...I dealt with it, I assure you.

As for Jenny's comment, it's all good, but I was just saying that not ALL of our foreign policy has been crap. Some of the countries that have gotten the blunt end of the stick (Iran, Syria, Iraq (invading Kuwait) etc....) have in the past acted aggressively and thereby deserved a good slap upside the head, by the big kid on the block. But I'm in no way saying the GW has done anything right since he's been in office (including the Iraq war). And, the stick should have been wielded by the WORLD, not just the U.S. We are on this planet together.

I would also ask the court that a bit of leeway be given in the conversation. So we stumbled off subject a bit, no harm, no foul. It's a pleasant conversation, as if we were all sitting in a pub talking about the subject. I'll be waiting on your ruling your honor.

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If you want to stay alive on your trip around the world, PUT CANADIAN STICKERS ON YOUR BIKE. IF you want to be jailed or abused, put an AMERICAN FLAG on your bike.

Chris,

By the way, I checked out your website...COOL...

Do you have any flags or country stickers on your bike...or on that BIG box on your bike?

I don't feel a need to have my US flag on my bike by any means, but it was just slapped on there, and then slapped off. I collect country stickers as the only souvenirs I purchase in the countries I visit. Aside from a bazillion digital pictures....

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If you want to stay alive on your trip around the world, PUT CANADIAN STICKERS ON YOUR BIKE. IF you want to be jailed or abused, put an AMERICAN FLAG on your bike.

Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread, and we thought we would share our views on the subject.

Actually, the letter reads like the US has never done a thing right in foreign policy, and I think is one sided.

Let's face it, whether we're talking about France, Spain or Britain during the days of empire, or Russia, China or the US today, no big power has completely clean hands. And who of us from Canada or any other country can definitively say that our country, given great power, would have wielded it any better?

Even in a democracy, countries are run by a few people who are entrusted by the masses to govern them. If leaders are badly informed or uninformed, or let emotion guide their decisions, or don't think through all the possible consequences of their actions, they can certainly make bad decisions. If they have great power, the impact of those bad decisions can be massive.

Let us not forget, though, that had it not been for the Americans in the last generation, Europe's map would look a lot different than it does today. And Americans gave generously to rebuild both Europe and Japan after the war.

I personally (Susan) have lived in the US as a teenager (in Texas, no less!), my sister is an American citizen who was married to a USAF pilot for many years, and I have worked with Americans in companies all over the world, as well as having met many Americans while travelling. In the past, I felt many of them were naive and uninformed, but almost invariably good hearted and well-meaning. Today, I think fewer of them are uninformed about the rest of the world, but I do worry about the messages that they are getting from the rest of the world (the CNN filter) and how they are interpreting them.

So what do we think is important to take from all this?

All of us should be promoting peace and understanding, and striving to understand other people's points of view. Very few issues are completely black and white. By travelling and participating in discussions, whether on this website or in a pub, we can all learn to appreciate the different perspectives of people from other countries.

To restate what we said when we launched the ezine in 1999,

As for the flags question which started the thread, although those who have seen the bike know we have travelled with a large Canadian flag on the back, I think for our next trip we will have only the map with our route on the panniers, and only the flags of countries we have visited on the boxes.

But, the reality is that many people will make or revise their judgments about a group (motorcyclists) or an entire country based on just a few individuals whom they meet and have either good or bad experiences with. So remember that you are an ambassador for your country and for motorcyclists, and we expect you to behave accordingly!

Susan & Grant
"One World, Two Wheels"

[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 18 January 2005).]

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Susan Johnson

Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Well I am going to just put a HUGE "I VOTED AGAINST BUSH" sticker right next to my american flag.
No seriously this is a pretty touchy subject from the huge emails above mine.
I am starting my RTW trip in May and I was a little concerned at first about being American but I am hoping people can seperate the govt from the individual. Though if you go around advertising the Flag it makes you look like a Bush supporter even though you may not support his administration. So my advice dress up in red with a big maple leaf on your chest and say "A" allot oh and try to piss everyone off. I have had enuff of everybody liking Canadians (Just Kidding)
Lighten Up People.

With ref to the question above about stickers on my bike. Only
*Bridgestone (lots thereof. Company that kills people driving Fords, allegedly, and who sponsored me: Next time I'll buy my own, more hassle than they were worth.

*Free Tibet (because I had it lying around the house)

*Allah Mohammed (bought in Turkey: Impressed the locals in the Middle East: Drive up to any police station in Turkey, Syria or Jordan and give the copper a tour of the bike... he sees sticker and is your best buddy: free safe parking for the bike

*GB: apparently means "France" to the African illiterate.

Sorry no flags, although I do own a pair of Union Jack Y-fronts

On the pizza box on the back I had a map of the world drawn by a nice man in Damascus, Syria. A petrol station attendant in Nicaragua knew exactly where Moscow was on the map. He studied there. A Harley rider near Denver, USA asked me "You been all over?". "All over what?" was my reply. "All over whatever that map is on your box". I think I'm off topic. Good night.

Cheers
Chris

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TheBrightStuffDotCom

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TBS.com

This thread has been GREAT. To each of you who have posted...I think I've learned a bit from the lot of ya'. Great points of views.

By the way, I do not have a canadian sticker on my bike. I love Canada, but the only Canadian sticker I got was in Yak British Columbia....I'll give you about 5 seconds to guess what it says....ok, times up...it says "I've bin to Yak n Bak".....I love it!
Anyway, you're some good people, I don't care where you're from. But I'm still keepin' my US citizenship a secret unless I'm talking over a with someone. I still haven't figured out how to get rid of the bike tags yet though....To those of you that have written from parts around the world, I apologize for the greedy, dishonest ways of my president. He does not represent me, because I value all people in all cultures no matter what country, whether you have oil or not.

Thanks.

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If you want to stay alive on your trip around the world, PUT CANADIAN STICKERS ON YOUR BIKE. IF you want to be jailed or abused, put an AMERICAN FLAG on your bike.

One of the things I like about Horizons is that the chatter about politics is usually kept to a minimum. This time I'm going to break my own rule and contribute to the nonsense.

I am an American, and in late 2003 I spent a couple of months in Mexico and Central America. During that time I had only one incident where someone harassed me about my nationality, and he was European (I forget what nation). So what is the deal? Why are the people on this thread who are complaining about the US the loudest Europeans? Do you really think that it is "understandable" that people would run an American off the road and put crap on his seat for displaying his flag? George W. won the last election by 110,000 votes out of 80 million or so, this country is as divided on our foreign policy as any other country is on it. I'm old enough to remember the time when if someone said they were from the state of Mississippi they were immediately regarded as racist lynchers by people who considered themselves enlightened liberals, when of course there are many fine people from Mississippi.

The Viet Nam war divided this country much as the current war (I hate that phrase, it implies there will be another one when this one is done)is doing. One thing we learned from that war is that most soldiers are there because circumstance put them there, and most try to do their jobs honorably. The cold and sometimes violent reception these soldiers got when returning home was misplaced venting of anger at a policy they had no control over as individuals, just as current attacks on individual American tourists are misplaced. I saw on the news where a British woman protesting in London was shouting that all British soldiers in Iraq were war criminals. The parallel to our own Viet Nam protests is eerie. It seems that history is repeating itself in another part of the world.

I'm not defending our actions in Iraq, I'm just asking people to seperate your opinions of our government from those of us as individuals, as the Latin Americans have apparently done.

To stay nomially on topic, I don't display an American flag on my bike when out of the country, but only because I think it's obvious enough I'm not a local and don't like to call extra attention to myself, war or no war.

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Andy Tiegs
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/ts...lsouth-america

Unfortunately there are uninformed biggots and misguided activists in all quadrants of the political compass.

"Do you really think that it is "understandable" that people would run an American off the road and put crap on his seat for displaying his flag?"

I don't think anyone was implying that this sort of behaviour is acceptable. I think what they meant is that they could understand which emotions led to it: Uninformed biggotry and a misguided desire to make a protest against what may be seen by some as a massive faceless enemy,whether that's motorcyclists, travellers (you'd be surprised by some peoples' reactions to anything that is at odds with their own philosophy of life) or Americans.

As a veteran of the 1st Gulf War I whole heartedly condone this view.

We must remember a few things about any countries soldiers.

They tend to be from the poorest parts of society.
They tend to go to the military because they have no other chance of employment or escape from the Ghetto
They are often badly educated and sometimes badly lead.
They are not Diplomats they are simple people doing what they think they are told to.
They have almost no say in their countries politics often disenfranchised from voting due to being away from home.

Don’t blame the solider, few of us have any concept of how stressful and confusing combat is.

I am deeply saddened that the world politics have come to this, after all the opportunities of the end of the cold war. We have really squandered our chance of world peace. Mainly by electing people who have little backbone to stand up to Tyranny of a single Texan.

Charlie



[This message has been edited by braindead (edited 19 January 2005).]

I’m surprise of the reactions to my post... It’s likely my skill in English is not good enough and my idea is not clearly explained, as some of you guys notice, but I don’t think this is the point.

First, if I gave the impression of any anti-american feeling, I apologize, I never had that intention. I like the States (even if I don’t like their present politic), I traveled there intensively and I have many close American friends and colleagues.

About the thread, I simply find naïve the surprise of some of us that exposing a flag can provokes bad reactions. Should be clear to any wise traveler that people can misunderstand the exposure of a flag with a support for the politic of a country, especially in this period of strong international contrasts.

That looks as obvious to me as riding wearing a helmet or having insurance. That is why I had an “angry” reaction, as GlobalGS wrote.

Additionally, in Europe most of us don’t have the habit to display national flags. I know this behavior is more common in US, but here it can be misinterpreted as a kind of “nationalistic” approach, especially in this period of international tension. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, it’ simply a fact...

Whew! This is the busiest pub in town!

I agree with Pietro that flags have very different symbolism over here. You almost never see a union jack flying outside someone's house (and when you do it seems to be a statement that a right wing nationalist lives there) whereas back home flags are everywhere.

My plan? A big honkin' Quebec flag! That way I confuse most people and anger the rest of the Canadians ;p

[This message has been edited by canadianmike (edited 19 January 2005).]

I agree with most of what has been written here. However:

> If leaders are badly informed or uninformed,
> or let emotion guide their decisions, or don't think through all the possible
> consequences of their actions, they can certainly make bad decisions. If they have
> great power, the impact of those bad decisions can be massive.

In principle, I agree with this - if it was only that... I suggest people go and check out the link I posted above www.democracynow.org I'm currently reading Amy Goodman's book "The Exception to the Rulers". The people in power know very well what they are doing. Their aim is to get as powerful and rich as possible and they are prepared to kill millions for it (and have already done so). They also control all the big US TV stations. She compares them directly to the Nazis.

I'm German and I'm glad the Nazis were defeated. The Nazis weren't opposed in the beginning. The Red Cross sent a delegation to inspect a model concentration camp. Nobody seemed to ask the question why they existed in the first place and what was supposed to happen to their occupants later. Later, that was too late.

The point I'm trying to make here is: we are not seeing an inept administration blundering, but we are seeing ruthless killers at the controls of the world's largest military machine. And they are using it for their personal ends and those of the multi-nationals they are in bed with.

Don't take it from me. Check it out.

And go visit Iran and Syria now. The drums of war can be heard again in Washington.

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Salut from Southern France, the bikers' paradise,

Peter.

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Cheers,
Peter.

Europe to NZ 2006-10

This is a great thread, but I really think we should stay away from a purely political discussion.

I read someone's blog on the site that they had a lot of success with their peace stickers on their bike. I think he was an American and he had stickers ant-war and peace stickers on his bike and people loved it. So I was thinking of getting stickers that said "make love not war"


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Brooklyn Dakar
http://motorcycleramblings.blogspot.com/

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Prevously known as JSherm
My blog: http://www.motorcycleramblings.com/
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/sherman/ I will up date this soon, really Grant, I will....
"This is the story of America. Everybody's doing what they think they're supposed to do." J Kerouac
"Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him" OW Kenobi