Good Morning Kazakhstan,

Des Senior, yes, damaging only oneself still damages someone.

Your second point is a good one. I carry a second wallet with a copy of my DL, passport, expired credit cards in my name and other innocuous identification like library cards, expired student IDs etc for the purpose of handing over in the event of attempted robbery or solicitation by an obviously corrupt official. And, I keep about $20.00 USD in that wallet. My plan is to hand over or drop or throw the decoy wallet and leave.

I would only hand over the original of my DL or passport in the confines of a secure location with other police monitoring, like at a border. I have shown the originals, but never handed them over.

I am not naive, I know there is corruption in every country, but I also know, as you have pointed, possible suspected terrorists in the area, that relying on forged documents might exacerbate the situation. Using forged documents might certainly be the cause of further detention and investigation.

And, if the forged document has to do with the motorcycle or TVIP (temporary vehicle import permit) it provides a loop hole for your insurance company that allows the company to legally deny paying bail, attorneys fees and damages to others. And, not having valid insurance absolutely risks hurting others and yourself.

A question - rosa and I will be riding 2 BMWs, from Spain to Latvia in 2018, and then would like to ride from Latvia to Kazakhstan and beyond, which months would have the best riding weather?

Thanks for your excellent comments.
xfiltrate

Hi again,

sure I dont expect all of you to agree with my way of doing things, you dont have to, its your journey and you have to be happy.

at Grumpy Geezer

... I think this policeman would just start laughing, , but dont know, I have never met him.

at Xfilterate

... do you really believe this? But I think this would be a different topic (thread) and not related to mc travel. Enjoy your journey to Eastern Europe and Asia.

All the best to you all with what ever paper you use, and thanks to all for the interesting answers, I will leave this thread now.

mika

It's all well and good xfiltrate to adopt a higher moral ground, and state that if I hurt myself that that is also damage to be eschewed/avoided.

However, I believe that there is far too much grey area and I basically adopt Mark Manley's approach to deciding whether to conform or not.

In addition, like Mika says, it is foolish to believe that governments have our best interests at heart when writing laws, or that government officials are always working in our best interest when attempting to enforce them.

To give you a couple of simple examples.

First, some - not all - countries require a rider/driver to present an IDP before being allowed to ride in that country. Usually, this is because the IDP has translation pages for different languages/scripts for countries where the average law enforcer would not be able to read the language of your home country (or state) licence. If this is the case, then it it is a good thing and I can see the benefits

However, whilst my home country licence lasts for 10 years and costs me $AUD140 an IDP lasts for only 1 year and costs $35 to renew. In order to obtain an IDP I simply present money and a passport photo that reasonably matches the photo on my licence - no ID checks or licence validity checks are required. In addition, the IDP fee is not paid to the Australian government but to my local automobile club

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

As a second example, even more farcical than the first, I plan to ride in Sri Lanka in the very near future.

Sri Lanka has a unique requirement that states that not only do I have to have to carry my Australian licence, and an IDP, but that I also have to make a special trip to take my IDP to the local automobile club (AA) in Colombo and have them issue an "endorsement letter" for the princely sum of $US35 before I can legally drive in Sri Lanka.

What does this letter achieve - neither it, nor my IDP, have Sinhalese translations of my Australia license - in terms of helping a local policeman make road travel in Sri Lanka safer.

In both of the above examples the only people to benefit are the local automobile clubs - private businesses whose primary business is provision of roadside breakdown and repair services.

To suggest the purpose of requiring these documents is anything other than pure profit to the issuer is arrant nonsense (ok, I do also accept that maybe there was profit for the government official who legislated the above requirement in return for a bribe from the automobile clubs).

Would I feel morally guilty in forging documentation in the above circumstances? - absolutely not!

Would I perhaps have a fear about being caught for forging such documents? - maybe, and I may decide the risk/reward equation doesn't justify it.

I am sure there are many other similar examples that others have. I can go back over 40 years to when I wasted inordinate hours trying to get government officials to stamp my carnet OUT of a country when I wanted to leave. It's all very good for them to insist you can't bring your vehicle into the country without required documentation but where is the recipricocity when you need them to document your departure in order not to forfeiture a bond equivalent to more than the value of your vehicle.

In summary, is the law an ass? Answer, yes, quite often.

Should one feel morally guilty about treating it as an ass in these circumstances? Answer - No, never.

__________________
Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Farqhuar wrote:

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

Farqhuar, thank you for your comprehensive but misleading response to my - as you put it - "adopting the moral high ground".

Your statement that "Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held." is not only misleading but might inspire others to follow your example . So I will share what I know to be true.

If your comment relates to your group or individual health insurance, separate from your motorcycle insurance, you might be right, but if you are claiming that illegally operating your motorcycle by driving permit or TIVIP, makes no difference to your liability coverage for that motorcycle, please post here after you have had an accident and I am certain you will discover that your illegal operation of an insured motorcycle (as described) will release your insurance company from any liability. Or, just read your policy disclaimers generally found in very fine print.

Look, unless your damages have been paid or you have collected from your motorcycle insurance company, while operating your motorcycle illegally, after you have caused personal injury or substantial property damage please set the record straight. Insurance companies only insure legally operated motorcycles/vehicles. This is an irrefutable fact. I know it is very difficult for some to understand this, but it is fact.

It matters little to me that you attempt to belittle my desire to present the facts about forging documents related to the operation or title of motorcycles and you are able to tunnel vision yourself into some justification or another. The facts remain the same no matter what you believe. The problem is many will also believe you until they have an accident. This is very unfortunate.

xfiltrate

This thread is swerving wildly off course. I would be surprised if anyone disagreed it was legally wrong to forge paperwork. How much sleep you lose over it depends on if you believe laws in general and specifically in that country count for jack. If you have an incident in the country and your papers aren't up to muster, you'll have to face the consequences...

The morality, on the other hand... I'm in Mark and Mika's corner. The only 2 things I'll admit to on a public forum is using a Paris metro season ticket (with photo and stamp from the Eiffel Tower on the back: those were the days when I was able to run up and down it...) that I used in the Middle East around the turn of the Millennium as a student id and was able to get much cheaper entry into major tourist attractions. In Egypt where some people saw through my ruse, I tried to buy an illegal student card from an illegal student card seller. He refused as he didn't like my attitude (never had that problem before or since ). So I got my mate to buy one and I just swapped the pictures. I recall the name on the card was Roger Buttocks or something similarly puerile

What are the morals of claiming UFOs exist?

Regarding the request for my generation: I think the question is jack, so I'll contribute the following as an wind up

__________________

Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Chris, as always thanks for your comments especially the vintage M-TV clip, and the more frivolous question regarding the morality of claiming UFOs exist which is more of a swerve than looking beyond the morality of forging documents.

And, finally, thank you for understanding, well at least reading, the possible consequences of forging documents - which was the hoped for goal that was the inspiration for creating this thread.

Who has stated UFOs exist - I am a qualified MUFON mufon.com investigator and have searched 3 continents over a ten year period and have never seen a UFO. I would like, very much to interview anyone who claims to have seen a UFO, been abducted or witnessed unexplained cattle/animal mutilations. Please PM

Off topic, but due to the large number of unexplained cattle mutilations between Chile and Argentina, 3000 reported cases during the last ten years, I have suggested one possibility is space tourism, this would entail serving up world class Argentine beef asado - as in flight meals.

For further information from science regarding unexplained cattle mutilations go to earthfiles.com

Eat, Drink and Fly Intergalactically whenever possible - I do
xfiltrate

Generally, I would say don't forge. Copy, yes.
However, sometimes needs must.
On my trip to India, my travelling companion obtained an https://www.theaa.com/travel/icmv from the AA in the UK. My bike was French registered and nowhere could I find the equivalent in France.

Now, visiting such different countries on route, it seemed a good idea to have all the vehicle info in a multi-lingual format. The ICMV comes with EN, FR, DE, IT, SP, Port, RUS, Arabic, Persian. We also had a translation made to Mandarin.
We dismembered the booklet and made high quality copies that were printed onto paper/card of the same colour.

We then made two copies, one for each bike and showing the correct info for both bikes and riders.
Worked a treat and saved many hassles at borders and checkpoints because it was easily understood.

Is that so wrong? Not in my little book

__________________
Nostradamus Ate My Hamster

Hello


In Switzerland, it's a bit different from other countries.

The numberplate is personaly linked to the holder of the registration and proof of insurance(green card). Change of ownership of a vehicule = new numberplate.

There are no restrictions on leaving the country with a swiss registered vehicule.

BUT, if you want to have the numberplates , you have to pay for insurance(green card) and taxes. If you stop paying, the police comes to your home an takes the numberplates.
If your on the road, no problem, but when you return home, big problem.

When on a RTW, WITH original numberplates and paying insurace, all is legal but expensive (green card useless outside europe).
(Problem is when the vehicule needs to go to the road savety inspection but your on a RTW)

SO, almost all cars and some bikes send the numberplates home once they have left europe, to avoid paying for useless insurance.

Then they make their own numberplates, only recognizable to other Swiss.

THE PROBLEM is, then you are on the road illegally, if you have an accident, the insurance you have bought in the local country is invalid.

In africa probably not a problem, but in Australia, USA, Canada, some lawyer might find this to avoid his insurance company to pay for your accident.

sushi

__________________
My RTW:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrXt660ztenere

For my esteemed colleagues who believe they are above the law.

Sometimes they are!

https://youtu.be/xzah0ylNTdc

xfiltrate

Hello

FOX News...
Let's rename this thread to "alternativ documents".

sushi

__________________
My RTW:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrXt660ztenere

Or PTD.... "Post Truth Documents"


X: Do we know the status of the stunt rider's papers? Forged or real?


How about this video? Maybe this is why "adventure bikes" a la big KTM/BMW are getting more and more horsepower: to outrun the police if the bike has fake papers

__________________

Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Think you'd need "alternative" number plates if playing that game, preferably ones that belong to a "safety" camera van

I am impressed how clean and safe the highway was. Warning: DO NOT attempt this in Louisiana. The shoulders are bumpy and full of trash, the drivers do not drive well, very slow drivers have a habit of blocking both lanes, and planes will be called in to catch the perp. Almost no one gets away with a high speed chase, there are too many drunks on the road.

Xfiltrate, thank you for your reply, however, I maintain my disagreement.

Sadly, you have not responded to my comments with regard to "morality" at all. You also make the assumption that if I was to injure a 3rd party I would attempt to wriggle out of any obligations. I am sufficiently wealthy to more than fund any compensation to injured parties - well in excess of any insurance coverage requirements for countries I travel through.

Apart from 1st world countries (where IDPs are typically not required in any case), when you travel outside your home country it is just about impossible to take out any insurance, other than what is mandatorily required by law when you enter a new country. This insurance is typically limited to third party personal damage - in other words, injury to person (s) that you cause whilst travelling on a public road.

In addition, as you say, the insurance company will use any excuse it can to weasel out of its obligations and is generally not worth the paper it is written on, never mind the money you pay for it.

Should you actually have an accident, regardless of whether you are at fault, I am sure you would be aware, in other than 1st world countries the normal method of compensation is a form of negotiation whereby you financially compensate the other party with cash, on the spot.

With respect to accidents in 1st world countries, I would like to use my home country as an example.

In Australia, every person who is injured on a road by any other person - in any incident, even a single vehicle accident, or even falling over crossing a road, is automatically covered by law for medical fees, long term disability and time away from work. This applies regardless of who is fault and regardless of whether any party is unlicensed, uninsured or in breach of any road laws.

Next week it will be 45 years since I obtained my motorcycle licence. Since then I have spent many of those years outside of Australia living, riding, driving and bicycling in just about every country on this planet. I am yet to have a collision with any other vehicle or person and have received only one traffic infringement (in Canada, for driving in the emergency lane when my engine was overheating), but have hit a number of animals and have also fallen off on poor roads (I elected not to seek compensation from the animal's family or from the government road builders in these instances).

So you see, there is no moral issue at all.

__________________
Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Farqhaur, you seemed to have taken this discussion very personally. My intention is not to demean you or the wealthy class. For your words, you seem to be an honorable person who would meet his obligations. It is unfortunate that you and perhaps others have failed to notice I am just attempting to help the "others" the masses, of which I am one, to meet their obligations. My post was not meant to be about you. So, if you took it personally I do apolize.

Eat, Drink, and don't forge documents

xfiltrate