A Question of Morality - Forging Documents

[xfiltrate]

Considering the other question of Morality - Flag Stickers quickly attained more than 500 views, I introduce here a definition of
"morality: " principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

So I pose the question of the morality of forging documents, more specifically documents related to motorcycles and/or worldwide motorcycle travel.

My opinion, this question better subscribes itself to "morality" than the Flag Sticker question. Just turn your ads back on and look at any page of the Hubb and you will see stickers. I find the morality question might better be addressed in relationship to Flag Stickers regarding the morality of the content the sticker represents. A Flag is a Flag.

So how about it? A Question of Morality - Forging Documents?

xfiltrate

[kawazoki]

Please... do it as often as you can in order to achieve you travel dreams..

Safe ride

[mark manley]

Before forging anything you should ask yourself could this impact negatively on anyone else in any way, if the answer is yes don't do it, if no I see no harm.

[lostintime]

Morality for stickers is a strong word...

I would say Sticker Etiquette

[mika]

Thanks for bringing up this question Xfiltrate. I did not even click on the morality sticker thread.

And thanks to Mark for the answer.

Before forging anything you should ask yourself could this impact negatively on anyone else in any way, if the answer is yes don't do it, if no I see no harm.

On my journey around the world by motorcycle I used my Finnish library card (no pic, my name written on with a pen, no word that anybody that does not speak Finnish could understand) as driving license or student card in most places. Only I think once or twice a policeman would ask me if this really is my driving license, and of course I said yes it is and he could not prove me wrong. It was more to entertain myself, than anything else, and of course one policeman in Senegal kept it because I refused to give him some colorfull paper called money.

In the end it is all a papergame (crossing borders, showing papers to the police) and also money is just paper. And as I see it as a game, I got better and better at it over the years ... and in 2015 i could even got into China without guide/agency ... but also sometimes I loose and give away some of the colorfull paper called money.

Just my 2 cents worth.
mika

[Bucket1960]

Love your work Mika
Life is just a game & you must entertain, even if it is just yourself at times
Paperwork is mostly aimed at government fundraising anyhow.
Sometimes it is nice to have a win against the system !

[kawazoki]

Originally Posted by mark manley

Before forging anything you should ask yourself could this impact negatively on anyone else in any way, if the answer is yes don't do it, if no I see no harm.

Ah..come to think of Mika replay to your answer as a problem for fellow travelers as if they are holder of real drivers licence from Finland most likely will encounter problem showing the original....right ??

Or maybe what I did back in 2014 when I use photo shop to create registration
with US plate,present from my friend in Nevada, and rode my Suzuki DR 650 from Serbia to Japan crossing 9 borders ....?
Almost forget to ad that my International drivers licence was also made by very helpful ..photo shop.Now I am wondering ...how many people suffered from my action to..?? It was more to entertain myself, than anything else.

Safe ride

[xfiltrate]

So I have posed the question of the morality of forging documents, more specifically documents related to motorcycles and/or worldwide motorcycle travel.
Please post your generation with your answer. Thanks.

Here are the birth years for each generation:

iGen, Gen Z or Centennials: Born 1996 and later.
Millennials or Gen Y: Born 1977 to 1995.
Generation X: Born 1965 to 1976.
Baby Boomers: Born 1946 to 1964.
Traditionalists or Silent Generation: Born 1945 and before.

I am a Baby Boomer.
Xfiltrate

[brclarke]

It seems far too broad of a question to have one pat answer. I would have to say that it depends on the situation and urgency.


Sorry, I don't feel comfortable giving out my 'generational' info.

[Tony LEE]

Problem is xfiltrate, that first step in applying the Mark Manly test is to know the rules, be able to read and comprehend the fine print in everyday legal documents and of course to have the emotional capacity to give a shit about the effect of ones actions on other people. Given that some are obviously unable to comprehend the outcome of their own actions on themselves, I doubt whether they would be too worried about anyone else

[xfiltrate]

Tony Lee, I have carefully read many of your posts and thus have great respect for your observations, your common sense and your perception of reality.

Many years ago, read 2007, when I laid down my first posts on the HUBB protesting the illegal forging of documents, I was inundated with cautions from those who had already posted for many years. The caution was - "don't waste your time, the majority of those who you respond to are an uneducated lot, uninterested in anyone or anything beyond their own limited horizons." "Most show little or no regard for the hard won rule of law that separates us from anarchy." "Most cannot even properly define anarchy or have ever conceptualized why there are laws."

And most harshly, were several statements that those who you protest because they are blatantly breaking the law and in some cases international law, are in a word, criminal, without the slightest remorse - and as Tony Lee has stated have very little understanding of the consequences their illegal actions might have on themselves and even less understanding or consideration of the consequences their illegal actions will have on others.

Thusly, I set about determining the reasoning of those who actively promoted the forging of documents - any legal document - irregardless of time and place or situation. Here is what I discovered.

Most of those who break the law do so because they truly believe everyone else is doing it. They see a successful man or woman and believe their success was stolen, that the only way to get ahead is to take advantage of others or society. This attitude is not innate in man, it is learned. Learned from those who surround the uninitiated in life's real experiences and teach the only way to survive is to lie, cheat and steal. These contra survival lessons are learned from that very small percentage of humanity - less than 5% who are truly evil without a social conscience - in clinical terms - sociopaths.

The 20% or so of humanity who have fallen victim to the real sociopaths are not all bad, not without a social conscience, they just value the real sociopath who has pretended to be their friend, even helped them survive, only to instill in them criminal behavior.

My message, hopefully understood, is to assure those who read here, that most people do not forge documents, that most people obey the law and that most people survive by good honest work. And, that most people are able to understand that governments have documents and laws for reasons that benefit the people.

It is true, that some laws are offensive, like the old laws permitting slavery, and laws that permit exploitation of workers etc, but laws that regulate the ownership of motorcycles or the entrance of motorcycles into foreign lands are not oppressive laws, they are laws designed to protect individual owners of motorcycles, the motorcycle industry of the country and indeed form the legal basis for which companies insuring motorcycle liabilities have base line statistics to determine insurance costs and benefits.

Any, repeat any forged document will null and void any insurance coverage purchased and without insurance, unless one is financial solvent - an accident involving personal injury or substantial property damage will land YOU in prison, possibly a foreign prison, until a judge determines if you are liable and if so until all liabilities are paid.

I have worked as a US Peace Corps volunteer, with the IRC and as a stringer for the LA times in Latin America. I have lived and worked in Latin America for more than 20 years. I have witnessed those condoning forgery of documents suffer at their own hand because they refuse to understand the consequences of their actions on themselves and on others.

I have hope, and I pray this thread might contradict the philosophy that life is only for entertainment - like some artificial action movie or some video game. Yes, life is a game, a game called survival and part of that game is helping others survive.

Stop forging documents now, for entertainment purposes or for any purpose and reach out and help someone else survive by making sure you have valid ownership of your motorcycle, you and your motorcycle are legally in country and your insurance is valid because it is based on real documents, not forgeries. Gracias Amigos. Un Abrazo!

xfiltrate

[Tony LEE]

Eloquently put.

This discussion can be taken a lot further in the overlanding context, and another good example of laws that seem to be made to be broken and in practice are broken over and over are the international agreements that allow us to enjoy our international nomadic existence.
One such is the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic and a summary can be found on wikipedia, which simply put states that unless your vehicle complies with all technical requirements for current registration in the home state and the registration documents are carried, then entry to a foreign country is not permitted under the convention.

So most countries requiring MOTs, TUVs and any of the various safety and pollution tests as a condition of registration and that cancel registrations and license plates if not renewed result in the vehicle not meeting requirements of that Convention.

There was a long discussion a few months ago on this topic on a famous facebook group and it comes up on most forums from time to time and while it was generally agreed that the rules are there and should be obeyed, but because particular home countries made it impossible to meet the conditions of the Convention because they do require tests and insurance before renewing registrations, then everyone was perfectly justified in ignoring it. Also partly reinforced by the plain fact that almost no other countries give two hoots about it either and rarely check currency of registration at the point of entry.
Probably no case studies to look at, or overlanders are extraordinary careful to not have accidents but one wonders what happens in a serious accident and a smart lawyer gets involved. One anonymous legal opinion given on panamericana forum stated that invalid registration back home means obtaining TIP by false swearing/deception and therefore is invalid which means any insurance is also invalid. But he also said that nobody seems to care so maybe the whole situation is best not discussed.

[Tony LEE]

I have to admit to stretching things a little bit, but one incident was a stretch too far.
Was going to buy a Swiss vehicle until I found out that Swiss law does not allow a vehicle out of the country (other than for a certain period and only provided insurance is current) and still retain valid registration and license plates. I was told the plates were fake and the documentation too but no problems since he would give me a receipt and a poder. Was a very expensive vehicle so I wanted to know how I could sell it on with just a poder. No problem I was told, I would get several poders with blank places for myself and any subsequent owners to fill out each time the vehicle changed hands.

As I said, a stretch too far.

[grumpy geezer]

I am a boomer. I feel that if you wish to forge documents or any other illegal activities in your fulfilling your quest for adventure, go ahead, I won't rat you out. I also won't bail you out. I have known people who looted burial grounds, sent the goods out of the country so they could be turned into bracelets, when caught, fined, deported, looked for sympathy. Its not a crime until you get caught, then everyone who follows is given a rough time. It only takes one policeman whose father was Finnish to give you a bad day..

[Tomkat]

xfiltrate your question has rather moved on and become more specific. To me the answer is "it depends". For the most part I believe Mark Manley's answer hits the spot. A "crime" is really only morally wrong if someone suffers.

Your point I think is that it could be yourself that suffers if you get it wrong. Travelling on forged ownership papers, driving licence or insurance could indeed get you into hot water. Police don't only work to extract money from us, they also have a role in stopping theft, terrorism, etc. If you have forged ID or driving licence and you get into an accident or are checked in a region where terrorism is a big risk you could be in big trouble.

Then again I see no problem making copies of genuine IDs, driving licences etc in case of corrupt cops threatening to confiscate them.