No worries, good idea, we need to shout about this as much as we can

I have just had this reply from the RAC, its basically a long winded way to say 'Yes were stuffing you all, but tough'

What they mention a few times is the fact there a 'club' and it's up to them what to do with the Carnet issuing, how about this........
We set up our own club and apply for the Carnets to be ran through us as well as the RAC. The AA and RAC used to do it so why cant we but only for adventure folk like us

Anyway here's the email i received;

Dear Mr Downs,
Thank you for your email addressed to our Carnet Department. I have been asked to look into and respond to your concerns.

We have been issuing Carnet de Passage en Douanes (CPDs) for more than 20 years and we have been the only issuer in the UK since the withdrawal of the other issuing club a number of years ago. We are committed to maintaining this service for the benefit of anyone wanting to take their vehicle to countries outside of Europe and we have taken steps to ensure the service is fairly priced for the risks involved.

The risk of a vehicle not being re exported can be costly to the club issuing the CPD and the amount of financial security needed to guard against re exportation not happening varies dramatically. Following a business review at the beginning of 2013 a decision was made to only offer insurance indemnity as security for CPDs due to the risk factors of the other security options. On average only 4% of CPDs issued were secured by bank guarantee, so it was withdrawn because of low take up and the difficulties associated with administration and legal requirements, which varied from bank to bank. Additionally the bank guarantee does not give the vehicle owner the same level of security that an insurance indemnity offers. Full cash deposits were also withdrawn for similar reasons and whilst we recognise this may be a disappointment the changes were necessary to reduce risk and to allow us to invest in our service and improve efficiency.

Other issuing organisations may have different attitudes to the financial risks, however, we have taken the necessary steps to ensure we can meet any financial obligations in respect of a claim arising through the use of a CPD.
As per the AIT/FIA CPD Handbook CPDs must not be issued to foreign registered vehicles, but exclusively to vehicles with license plates of the country of the issuing club. This is a rule set down in the AIT/FIA Guarantee Agreement. There are exceptions i.e. CPDs may be issued to residents of countries where there is no issuing club and also if written authorisation is received from the issuing club in which the vehicle is licensed. We would only grant permission in exceptional circumstances and we would not consider the varying costs between issuing clubs as an exception.
The AIT/FIA Information Centre, based in London, collects and distributes information on 65 countries for the AIT and FIA clubs. As per the guidelines in the CPD Handbook we, as an issuing club, must ensure that all necessary steps have been taken to meet financial obligations in the event of a claim. We determine the amount of security deposit and bearing in mind that duty rates are quite high in certain countries we follow the recommendation of the AIT/FIA by taking an adequate deposit.

I'm sorry as I know it won't be the answer you hoped for but our decision not to grant permission to the ADAC stands, however, I do hope I have been able to explain the reasoning behind it. If you would like to discuss this further please contact me on 0********.

Yours sincerely
Louise Campbell
Customer Care Officer

Perhaps we should start a campaign to get the RAC to stop issuing CDPs. That way there would be no issuing club in the UK and we could all go to ADAC.

Politely put, I am annoyed the CDP is becoming something only rich people can afford!

The insurance option is a bit of a self-fulfilling vicious circle really. Of course the risk of people not bringing their vehicle back home is a lot higher when they're not going to get much money back! It's a sunk cost, so what's to stop you selling the bike abroad? Most of your cash goes to the insurance and RAC (225 GBP for a pre-printed booklet?!?) and you only get a tiny fraction back.

If I knew I would stand to get most of my money back, I might make much more of an effort to bring my vehicle home!

Sadly its a money making thing for them and the insurances, not as the letter above would have you believe, an effort to make continuation of the CPD service possible for us travelers.

Sorry to rant! I hope the RAC read these things too!

__________________
http://followingtarmac.com/

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I have just received my bike back from Dubai (I rode there from London in September) and am about to submit my completed CPD to the RAC.

I was travelling with a group of German registered bikes and my co-adventurers were bemused to hear that I did not receive the full amount of deposit back once I reimported my bike.
They all thought it sounded like a complete rip off that I only received 50% of my deposit when ADAC issued them with 100%.

I spoke to the RAC today and am waiting for a manager to call me back to explain this but the underling I spoke to kept telling me that it is an insurance policy that I am paying for.
Having done some research on this matter and reading through the ADAC website, it would appear that the same insurance company, Millers Insurance, provides insurance for both the RAC and ADAC so I cannot see why as European citizens, there is one rule for the Germans and another for us British. Why do we get ripped off?
I am happy to pay for the costs of providing the CPD and administrative costs but why do I have to pay £3200 (50% of the deposit) to the RAC when German, fellow EU citizens, do not get penalised the same? Surely this is a case for the Monopolies Commission?

If any of you have encountered a simmilar situation I would be interested in starting a petition to bring the RAC in line with other EU organisations which offer the same service.
This stinks and something should be done about it.

I don't understand how this can happen.

I was living in the Netherlands, with an NL registered bike, and got my Carnet from ADAC because NL AA doesn't issue carnets, and they have arranged with ADAC to do that.

I had to send the money to ADAC: Euro 3150.
I got the full Euro 3,000 deposit back.

The actual Carnet is issued by a Swiss organization: FIA Federation Internationale de l'Automobile.

The Carnet that I got was described as a guarantee for a foreign company that a vehicle will be re-exported within a time limit. However in the fine print it says that it is an insurance, backed by a Lloyds of London company (R.L. Davison & Co. Ltd).

What did the paperwork say was supposed to happen?
The informal info from ADAC very clearly stated that I'd get a full 100% refund of my deposit: see attached.

HOWEVER, now that I've seen your posting I've gone back to read the fine print on the ADAC issued carnet (see attached).
And in THAT, see Section 8, it says "Upon return of the definitively canceled customs document ADAC is entitled, but not obliged to pay out the cash deposit to the recipient listed on receipt...."

BUT in the ADAC webpage info (in a pdf) they DO say (Section 9: Return) that the deposit will be refunded. That's what I saw, I never even saw the part where it says they are "entitled but not obliged". Very strange.

Why would RAC not refund it, and yet ADAC would?

I would also contact FIA and ask them what their policy is.

Do your homework and then consider getting a lawyer and presenting that to them.
But do the work yourself, don't ask them to do that: you wll get chaged more.
You paid for a service that should be pretty straight-forward.
A lawyer's letter to RAC might work wonders.
It's definitely worth at least half of the amount you think you should get back.

Attached Thumbnails

 

Attached Files

Carnet%20de%20Passages_Antrag(komplett)_englisch_tcm8-166369.pdf (624.0 KB, 567 views)

Hi All,

Today we had the RAC send us a nice email, on the last Friday before Christmas whilst we are in Colombia, to tell us that they have written to our bank to make a claim on our Bank Guarantee for a carnet used in 2012 -2013.

They did not tell us a claim had been made,

They did not allow us to defend the claim

They did not notify us before approaching our bank to claim the guarantee

They told us they don't send letters any more and just communicate by email (they were unable to provide any copies of emails to us), last year they told me they only communicate by post lol

We spoke to them last year when they withdrew the Bank Guarantee without notice, RAC Improved Carnet service & 10% off your Carnet | Overland Sphere - Overland Travel Forum & Information
They promised to improve their service, it seems to me its just going downhill.

With all of this we want to send a message to the RAC and would ask if you would sign and share our Petition on change.org

https://www.change.org/p/fia-rac-uk-...ter-rac-carnet


Sign this petition,

- show the RAC we want to be treated better,

- to break the monopoly that the RAC has,

- to have a free market in Europe and across the world on Carnets

- to make the RAC allow you to use other Carnet issuers without barriers

- to force the RAC to actually make contact or make all reasonable efforts to contact you prior to making a claim

__________________
MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

That's actually a pretty good idea to ask the RAC to stop issuing carnets.
Then you would be able to go somewhere else for it, someone who actually wants to provide a service.

The main FIA website says that you have up to one year to provide proof of re-exportation of the vehicle. So t would seem that the RAC jumped the gun here Mart's case. And it also says the claim has to be submitted within 1 year of the expiry of the carnet.

How does the CPD system function? | Federation Internationale de l'Automobile

And I think there must be some legal definition for how the RAC is supposed to notify you if a claim has been made. I doubt an email would do: there's no proof of delivery for an email. But if the DID send you a letter to your address of record and you didn't read it, then you are a bit screwed. However you do have a year to contest it.

It says that in the FIA Regulations.

Well done Mart, I have signed your petition.
I was going to start one myself until I saw your post.
The RAC is a monopoly and should not be able to block UK citizens from obtaining a CPD through ADAC in Germany.
Surely there are EU laws that prevent this type of racket?
ADAC and RAC both use the same insurer, Millers Insurance Services, so I don't believe for a minute that ADAC somehow obtain cheaper policies that mean they can refund 100% of the deposit where the RAC will not.
Who do you intend submitting the petition to?
I have been trying to find a regulatory body to whom the RAC answers to but have had luck so far.

Hi All Thanks for the replies:

@WarthogARJ
The RAC received the claim on the 12 Dec 2013 from the AAA and Australian Customs.

I believe they have to settle all claims within one year, we had a similar issue last year with a claim made by Malaysia, we were notified late by the RAC but managed to get a Police report whilst in Australia to back up the carnet etc and the claim was dropped before the RAC settled it.

Whats different this time is:
1) that the RAC did not notify us of this claim until yesterday, They claim sent they a couple emails (they have yet provided me copies of these yet, they have confirmed they did not send anything by post)

2) they seem to have lost the returned Carnet,

3) so rather than letting us know and seeing if we had copies or other evidence they just settled the claim by claiming on our bank guarantee with our bank to pay Australian customs... we have copies, BL, photos from the ship to NZ, and have forwarded these all directly to the Australian customs & AAA. There is just no point in going through the RAC.

The claim i hope will eventually be rejected & refunded but until then, they would have messed up our UK banking relationship and taken our funds.

If this was the ADAC this would not happen, it would have also been cheaper and we would not have (like many other travellers) had a series of issues over the last few years. Hence Change in the UK is needed!


@njcwilkinson

The bodies I would be sending this to are:

The CEO of the RAC
FIA
Competition and markets authority (was the Competition Commission)


Last year the RAC stated in an email to me that there would be no reason for them to ever deny a request for a letter of Non Objection to use the ADAC.

I have sent them an email this morning requesting one but i have also pushed them to issue a general statement on their website notifying people looking for a carnet of their rights to use another Carnet issuer if they wish.

We will see if they come through on this or not, if they don't I will raise it with the Competition and markets authority.

If the RAC were competitive and competent, we would not have these issues, one can only hope that they do improve...


It would be fantastic if you could also share the petition link with other overlanders, the more we have sign the more pressure we can put on the RAC make change,


https://www.change.org/p/fia-break-t...ter-rac-carnet

Thanks for all your support.

__________________
MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

I think you guys need to look into the background of how the carnet system works: if you want to fight it, you need to understand the current system.

My understanding is that the organization FAI issues the carnets: there are several types, not just for vehicles, but for all sorts of customs import. They use them for Grand Prix for instance, World Cup yachts, Olympics etc etc. They are single use or multiple use, single country or multi-country. They vary a lot.

The market for world travelers on bikes and 4x4's is miniscule compared to the entire market. However the CPD that we use is recognized at the borders of even the most remote places: I think you'd struggle if you used something else.

Millers Insurance Services is NOT used by ADAC or RAC etc directly. It is the UNDER-RIGHTER (Lloyds) of the FAI. Sure it's mentioned in your policy, but you're not actually dealing with them. You are buying a GUARANTEE from the FAI, that is sold by the organizations that represent them in any given country: ADAC, RAC etc. And that guarantee is backed by an insurance policy. The guarantee says that if don't follow the import/export rules in a specific country, that the country can claim on the FAI (via ADAC, RAC etc.) If the money the RAC etc got from you, or your bank etc is not enough, then they get the rest from the under-righters.

And I myself would not want to really "trust" some character who wants to make ME liable for some debt, who has left the country, is hard to reach, and has vague plans of when they will be back!! So can you really blame them for not wanting to bend over backwards and get into bed with us just on trust? No. That's why they want the $$$.

If you look at the FAI websight, our carnets are under "Mobility". There are other types, and other agents in the UK. But only one does mobility in the UK.

It's not really a monopoly, anymore than if you want to buy something from Touratech, and are told you have to get it from Touratech UK. And cannot buy it (via post) from say Touratech Germany.

Same as a car: if you buy a Mercedes, you have to buy from the local firms. Unless you go to another country and satisfy the local rules. And they usually want you to be a local resident etc.

I HATE this local distributor deal as well: I don't see why I cannot buy direct. Why pay someone like Touratech UK a lot more for little extra? OK, maybe to be able to return it to them than to Germany etc: but I am willing to take that risk. And they often don't have stock, so you have to wait until they get something in. But it's common practice: so is obviously not easy to fight. This is sort of a digression, but it DOES show that this RAC/Carnet thing is pretty typical of how things work in the EU.

And if you read my earlier post, the fine print in what you signed for, says that they are "ENTITLED to" but "NOT OBLIGED" to refund your deposit. and THAT was from ADAC. Scarey stuff, but is in the fine print. And you signed for it (as did I). I'm lucky that ADAC doesn't do that.

But the FAI does the carnet's according to international treaties: I briefly tried to get a copy, I'm sure it's possible. But I'm sure is a fairly complex thing.

Actions for Mart etc:
Carnet to RACE: I assume you took a copy of the Carnet before you returned it? And sent it registered mail, or courier? Right?
If you didn't, you're going to have problems: how can you prove you actually used it properly otherwise? Or actually sent it back?
It's a legal document, and worth quite a bit of money.

Notification: You need to get legal advice on this, but I think that emails cannot be used as legal notification of a claim. I think you have to use a letter, or a fax (faxes have a proof of where they were sent from, and proof of receipt: emails do not).

If so, the RAC had to notify you in writing, within the periods specified. If you didn't leave them with a proper address for this, or didn't read your mail, or have someone read it, then I think you are in trouble.

But if they did not notify you properly then THEY are the ones at fault.

The paperwork/red-tape is part of the whole "adventure" process unfortunately. It's not just a case of jumping in the vehicle and roaring off. The rules change, and you need to be on top of it: visas, customs, insurance, medical etc etc.

If you screw up, you can lose big time. Not just money. At the extremes people have been arrested/detained/held in places like Iran, North Korea, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Saudi etc.

@WarthogARJ

Thanks for the info, I am directly in contact with the AAA in Australia regarding my claim, they now have a copy of my Carnet, BL, photos from the ship and even details of the person who signed and also took a copy the carnet at the customs in Wollongong. I should hear back from them tomorrow.

It's a shame the RAC did not bother to contact me for copies before proceeding with settling the claim, for me this is just negligence.

I have a lot of experience in Financial Compliance, I am used to rules and regulations. I am up for a fight with the RAC, we have had a carnet with them for the last 4 years, 4 years of annoyance at their incompetence.

The rules for Business and consumers are very different, in the UK consumer protection over financial products is becoming main stream with fairness and being treated equally being very important.

The FIA appear to want to promote mobility, whereas the actions of the RAC are limiting this for people in the UK. Which could be seen as being discriminatory if they do not allow you access to other markets, especially when they are not offering the same product any more.

I have asked the RAC for details of their polices and procedures regarding claims made on carnets. Once I have that I shall start considering my actions and the best outlet for my complaint.

Thanks for your help & support

__________________
MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

Forgive me if this is a naive question, but having read this thread and the rules on the RAC website (http://www.rac.co.uk/pdfs/driving-ab...et-prices.aspx) I'm flabbergasted at the potential cost of a CdP for a trip to India.

If I've worked it out correctly, to take a trip on my f800gs (value £5000) to India the costs will be:
10 page CdP(to get through Iran, Pakistan and India) = £220
Refundable deposit = £350
Country specific payment (Security Rate at 500% of £5000 = £25, 000. 10.6% security risk rate = £2650) = £2650

Total payable for CdP = £3,220

The refund (assuming the bike makes it back in one piece) will eventually be the deposit plus 50% of the security risk rate (£350 + £1,325) = £1,675

Meaning that the whole CdP will cost £1545. That's crazy - or am I missing something?

For anyone with long memories, what were the equivalent costs associated with the bank guarantee or deposit?

If it were possible to get the RAC to allow ADAC to issue a CdP what would the costs be?

Dave

We posted a comparison of the different Carnet methods here:

A Guide to Carnet de Passage - Overland Travel | Overland Sphere - Overland Travel Forum & Information

It also details other carnet issuers costs too.

__________________
MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa