Hi,
I posted about this on the UK BMW GS1200 forum UKGSer.com.
Mentioned the issues and the petition.

Hopefully we get some names from that.

It's a UK issue only, so I don't think the Adventure Rider Forum would be as good, but I will post there as well.
Maybe a few UK riders will see it.

Alan

I got a reply, but not the answer I want:

Good afternoon and thank you for your email. Please see attached which you may have seen on our website, the reason why we no longer accept bank guarantee’s as a payment option. Also the reason below shows when we would give other issuing clubs permission to issue a Carnet on our behalf.

In line with the Carnet Convention, all CPD guaranteeing and issuing associations of the AIT and FIA are bound by a multilateral Guarantee Agreement which sets down all conditions for the guarantee and issue of Carnets de Passages en Douane.

An Association will issue Carnet documents only in respect of vehicles registered in the country of the Issuing Association. If, exceptionally the above condition is not met, the Issuing Association which receives the request for a Carnet must consult the Issuing Association in the other country concerned as necessary in order to ensure that adequate guarantees and permission is obtained.

We have made a decision as the issuing club for the UK, and to ensure we are following the guidelines of the agreement that we will now only provide permission for other clubs to issue Carnets on our behalf in exceptional circumstances. An example of an exceptional request could be; an application being part of an overall rally application the other club is issuing Carnets for where it makes sense that they issue all of the Carnets required for rally.

Hope this helps,

Ian Bridges
Carnet De Passage Customer Care Executive

I've replied showing my frustration (politely) and asking for greater clarity; apart from the example of an international rally, what other reasons would the RAC consider issuing a letter of no objection to ADAC issuing a CdP to me?

No reply yet. I'll keep you posted.

Dave

That's not good,

I am sending out the petition today, but i expect it will take around a month to get some answers,

Firstly it will go to the RAC, FIA and AIT.

If we have no luck then i will raise a formal complaint with CMA Competition & Markets Authority,which i expect would take even longer....

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MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

We will need our CDP for Africa this time next year...(Still in Euroland on the road) So fingers crossed and thanks for the good work you are putting in.

The Mrs is German and we have friends in NL..would just be nice to get it sorted in the UK..if not, then maybe we will register the truck somewhere else...as i say .. fingers crossed,

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Facebook " Kevin Heike " come and say Hello as we travel around the world.

Also cross posted at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...f-please-79743 and shared on Facebook just now. Might be easier to find in a new thread too.

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Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

shared on our facebook page and signed.

Our experience was pretty poor also. When I tried to extend my CDP 3 months ago it was really difficult to get answers. The RAC wanted a new insurance indemnity AND new carnets (Land Rover & Trailer) costing us the same as the initial amount.

We got permission from the AAA here in Australia to renew, filled out the forms and then they said it needed to be approved by the RACV here in Victoria. Well, I knew it was going to go south and cost us a heap so I started down the road of a permanent import. Well, 4 weeks later I had gained the VIA approval, paid customs and duty, had the vehicle engineered approved, roadworthy and registered. All before I had even had a response from the RACV! Then I got a reply saying they needed approval from someone in Canberra and the RAC along with themselves. I just laughed and told them I had permanently imported the vehicle for less than the cost of a 12 month extension.

The situation is laughable.

G

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Land Rover D90
www.Siroccoverland.com | Follow us on Facebook

Dont hold hour breath with the FIA. I tried twice, Nov 13 and Feb 14.

See http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...tart=20#391660

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New bike, Retired Nomad.

Hopefully we will get somewhere this time,

I am in contact with both C Woodhouse the Chief Executive of the RAC, and the FIA.

If the they dont play ball, i have already sought advice from the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) to take it a stage further.

If that does not work then it will be on to the European commission,

It will take time but we have to exhaust all possible routes before giving in ;-)

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MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

Many thanks to all those who have supported the petition to the RAC & Others (FIA, CMA, FCA, EU Commission)

The RAC Complaints Department and the CEO have received the Petition and have promised to respond in the first week of January.

We now have 380 signatures which is fantastic, thank you,

We are not expecting a positive response from the RAC, we will need to take it one step at a time through each organisation.

The more signatories we have on the petition the more likely it is that the organisations will start listening, so please do keep sharing and if you have not signed it already, it would be great if you could.

Any media buzz you can create would be beneficial to show these organisations that we are not backing down on this…

Many thanks for all your support.

Martin & Nicole

https://www.change.org/p/european-co...net?lang=en-GB

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MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa

Shared in a few places... Fingers crossed and thanks again for putting the time in.

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Facebook " Kevin Heike " come and say Hello as we travel around the world.

428 signatures now

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The Art of Misadventure
http://www.theartofmisadventure.com

I'm going to ask the RAC for permission to apply via the ADAC.
I will point out that I want to take the same vehicle (except older and thus less valuable) on the same route: thru Egypt.

And that their cost is much higher than ADAC's for exactly the same thing.

The RAC is a private company: owned by the Carlyle Group, which is an AMERICAN equity group. They are NOT non-profit, and not even UK based.

Carlyle bought the RAC from AVIVA in 2011, and I suspect the changes to the CDP were due to that. They want to make a profit and are not interested in providing a service for its own sake per se, especially not if it's a small group (I read in a post that about 400 UK CDP's were issued annually).

I think that there could be an argument made for anti-competition. When you register a vehicle as UK, then THAT forces you by the FIA rules to go to the RAC. So it's really the FIA that's at fault there.

I just checked and on the RAC's site itself there is a link to the UK Ombudsman:
Financial Ombudsman Service: Banking, Insurance & Pensions Ombudsman UK

Since this is an insurance related item, then it does fall under their scope.

As the title suggests.

I got a reply from the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA), who are the monopolies people.

The stuff I have posted on Adventurebikerider.

This was my original letter.... http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...tart=20#391660

This was their reply, including the very useful links they provided, and my re-reply...... http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...tart=30#393483

I appear to be have placed in the too difficult/zero priority pile.

Feel free to right to them using the same sentiments but please do not cut and paste - it looks cheap.

Ray

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New bike, Retired Nomad.

https://www.change.org/p/european-co...vellers-better

Please see below an extract from the RAC's response in regards to the Petition and complaint lodged with them.

As expected it was not positive.

It is interesting to read that they state that the issuance of the Carnet is not covered under the FCA, CMA or the EC.

I shall need to clarify this in due course.

Further to the RAC's reply, I shall now forward the petition and a letter of complaint to the FAI and wait for their response.

The petition now has over 450 signatories which is a fantastic response, however it would be wonderful to have more. So if you could please continue to share this petition it would be really appreciated.

Many thanks for all of your support

Martin & Nicole
(if you would like to chat with us or have any ideas on how to progress the complaint feel free to contact us through our Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/OverlandSphere/ or on any of the forum posts out there)

"Dear Mr McGowan,

I write in response to your email of 30 December to Chris Woodhouse, who has asked me to respond on his behalf.

As you rightly point out, RAC reviewed the carnet scheme that it operates in 2013 to address a number of historic issues that had been causing administrative issues both for RAC and for carnet-holders. We are confident that our customer service has improved during this period and that the system and documentation are now a lot clearer. We always welcome any feedback on specific issues and always invite people to raise specific concerns they may have on customer service with us. We have responded in full to the complaints that we have received from yourself and are satisfied that the customer service that you have received has been prompt and efficient.

We regret that other carnet-holders feel that they have not received prompt responses and have chosen the petition as a way of raising their concerns. We are unable to comment on their individual circumstances in correspondence with you, and would urge them to write to us directly with their specific concerns so that we can examine their individual issues and respond in full.

From 2013 we have made some changes to the way that we calculate vehicle values and to our terms and conditions. All changes have been made in conjunction and under the advice of the FIA and our insurers and are in line with our obligations under the carnet scheme. The changes only applied for new carnets and we have included updated information on our website and communicated the changes to all customers when they have contacted us for new carnets.

You are correct that RAC has removed the option to secure carnets via cash deposit and bank guarantees for commercial reasons. The time taken in processing carnets and claims that were secured by this method and the relatively small numbers of individuals who chose to take up those options made these options financially unviable for RAC.

You mention that the insurance does not provide any “cover” for the carnet holder because the insurer can still pursue the carnet-holder. This is correct – a carnet-holder cannot expect any “cover” for failure to perform an action (export the vehicle) which is completely within their own control.

By taking out a carnet, the carnet-holder is making a contract with RAC promising to export their vehicle from that country. The security, in whatever format, is intended to cover RAC’s liability to the customs authority to ensure that the customs authority receives the relevant import duties. However, the individual is still in breach of contract to the RAC and the RAC (or its insurer) is therefore entitled to recover any damages that it suffers as a result of this failure.

If a customer wished to get cover for their failure to export a vehicle, they would need to seek this elsewhere as this is not the aim of the carnet scheme. However, we are not aware of any insurance company that would provide cover against a deliberate act of breach of contract. You may be able to acquire insurance against events that would prevent the return of the vehicle, but again this is not the aim of the carnet scheme and you would need to take your own advice as to how best to address this risk.

Refusal to allow UK car owners to access alternative services in the EU

You are no doubt aware that the carnet scheme is operated under an international Customs Convention and operated by the FIA. In participating in the carnet scheme, RAC is bound by the terms of that convention and the rules of the FIA. As you have correctly identified, all clubs have recently been reminded by the FIA that the letters of Non-Objection should only be issued in exceptional circumstances. We therefore have no option but to comply with this. See Section 3, AIT/FIA Guarantee Agreement/ART.10 – Procedures for protection of the system:

a) An Association will issue AIT/FIA documents only in respect of vehicles registered in the country of the issuing Association. If, exceptionally the above condition is not met, the issuing Association which receives the request for a carnet must consult the Association in the other country concerned as necessary in order to ensure that adequate guarantees are obtained.

Therefore Carnets may be issued to residents of countries where there is no issuing club and also if written authorisation is received from the issuing club in which the vehicle is licensed, however, we would only grant permission in exceptional circumstances. Unless exceptional circumstances are proven we would be unable to provide you or members of Overland Sphere a letter of non-objection for the ADAC.

We note your comments on this issue and have already passed on comments of this nature from our customers to the FIA but we remain bound by their guidance.

You mention in your email that you consider this to be “in breach of Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) rules, Financial Conduct authority Rules & the European Commission’s rules by preventing UK vehicles owners from 1) accessing alternative services providers in Europe & 2) access to alternative financial products and services not offered in the UK”.

The carnet scheme is not a financial product and does not include any element of insurance for individuals or any other financial services element. Therefore this product is not governed by the FCA.

In relation to your comment about the CMA and the EC; these are not relevant to the carnet scheme as RAC is essentially performing a public function of general economic interest under the Convention.
Therefore we are not carrying on a commercial activity that would be caught by the EU competition rules – issuing clubs do not compete against each other in an economic market for the issuing of carnets in the same way that individual EU Member State government entities do not compete against each other for the issuing of passports to their citizens.

As a final comment, we note that the petition contains many references to RAC holding a monopoly on carnets. RAC are indeed the only organisation that issues carnets in the UK. This is not a circumstance of our own making and we have not sought exclusivity on provision of carnets. It is open to the FIA to appoint other issuing authorities and, indeed, the AA did provide carnets historically.

Whilst we are unable to comment on reasons why other entities may not wish to provide carnets, we would point out that the carnet scheme is very burdensome in terms of administration of carnets, individual customers’ issues and claims. We make very little in the way of profit from carnets and have only chosen ourselves to continue to offer the product to support motorists and our ambition to be the Motorists’ Champion. For this reason it is particularly disappointing that we have received a complaint of this nature, which largely relates to issues that are beyond the control of the RAC. "

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MyOverlandAdventure
OverlandingAssociation.org Overlanding Africa