More importantly: its VIN number has been recorded in a database that is part of international cooperation agreements, and can be traced back if stolen or re-registered. Race bikes may not even have VINs!

Almost certainly not a carnet, but possibly some form of TIP or other authorization paperwork.

Note that when you transport your Canadian-plated vehicle by aircraft, the vehicle gets placed in a customs warehouse at the other end. And to drive it out, you - the owner - must show up, with your passport and your ownership documents, and sign papers whereby you basically promise to take the vehicle out of this customs area within 12 months, and not sell it on while you're here.

So yeah, transport by commercial hauler to a customs warehouse and then pickup by the owner = minimal paperwork. Transport of other people's vehicles in the back of a van... *potentially* more paperwork.

Real-life example: leased vehicles entering Russia. I live in an EU country with a land border with Russia, and this is definitely A Thing. When you privately lease a vehicle, the bank owns it - you (and maybe a couple of your family members) are simply an Authorized User written into the registration certificate.

This is fine for driving the vehicle all across the EU/EEA and most "friendly" countries, but at some point Russia decided that it would treat any border crossing by a non-owner (even an authorized user) as a potential attempt to import the vehicle, and require a full customs bond from the bank that owns the vehicle. Which a bank - technically owning thousands of vehicles - of course wouldn't do.

So yes, there was a legitimate problem where you could not cross into Russia in a leased private vehicle without loads of paperwork and putting up loads of money. It CAN happen, and the UK is now a third country, as much as Russia.

"This is fine for driving the vehicle all across the EU/EEA and most "friendly" countries, but at some point Russia decided that it would treat any border crossing by a non-owner (even an authorized user) as a potential attempt to import the vehicle, and require a full customs bond from the bank that owns the vehicle. Which a bank - technically owning thousands of vehicles - of course wouldn't do."
So yes, there was a legitimate problem where you could not cross into Russia in a leased private vehicle without loads of paperwork and putting up loads of money. It CAN happen, and the UK is now a third country, as much as Russia.



This is exactly what I want some clarity on, and even the professional motorcycle movers don't appear to know yet where they stand.
I want to van my bike, and those of some mates who are more time-poor than me, to Spain or Portugal, meet them off the plane and ride, but I can't even find out what to expect when getting off the ferry.

The only change for UK to EU is that you need a physical green card. Insurers are offering them for free, had one for work related stuff in the RoI and NL/Germany since Jan 1st. Health cover is also worth checking.

Taking a personal vehicle on holiday is not taking advertising material to an event, so no point comparing.

There is another potential positive (to go with our vaccine roll out). If they can issue a green card to go to Spain, will some enterprising insurer offer Morocco?

Andy

CDP, mate, not green card.


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The only change is that you need a physical green card.

You did not need a CdP before. This has not changed. You do not need a CdP now.

Andy

See above! Things potentially change now if you have some bikes in the back of a van, that don’t belong to you and customs decide you need shipping documents - not a CDP, granted, but you’d still be stuck at the border or stumping up a deposit.

I’m sure it will all settle down by the time we can travel.


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Taking a personal vehicle across the border by yourself is not the same as taking a vehicle (or several) that you do not own across the border.

Correct.

Taking anything you do not own in any significant quantity will he viewed as likely commercial activity. You need export and import declarations with value, details of the owners, commodity code etc. This can be temporary for things like tools and a deposit/bond might be requested against VAT due if the import ends up permanent . Doesn't matter if it's a mates bike or a lorry load of fish. An import broker would get through a trailer of bikes for France in two minutes. When we sent pumps to Iran it took them a little longer!

CdP is for a vehicle to be driven on the road across the border.

What's amazing me most is that this is coming as a shock to anyone. The only way this could have been avoided was to remain in the customs union which was taken off the table directly after the referendum. The stupidly late announcement in December was only on tariffs and waiver agreements. They could have limited personal vehicles and required a CdP but did not. They could have charged 10% of a value of the lorry load of fish but they did not. The amusements of uniformed bullies encouraged or not by their political masters is just what happens, it'll calm down if they want a tourist industry . Be glad they don't yet have mirrored sunglasses and assault rifles.

Andy

Probably best that Wheelie doesn't take his torque wrench then ....

This - well put Andy. I don't think there's a need to be too worried about ham-sandwich-confiscating Dutch customs officers becoming the norm! Does make a great headline for the Daily Mail though ;-).

And as ever it'll be as much about a new normal getting bedded in and refinements in the processes over time. Things are just a bit frozen ATM because of the lack of normal X-Channel traffic.

Nonetheless this has been a useful thread to discuss the ins and outs of things.

For my part, I feel more comfortable about taking my bike over in a van this summer, COVID restrictions dependent of course.

Thanks all,

Ed

__________________
Where Next Barney? / Trans Morocco Trail

I don't think this IS coming as a shock to anyone Andy. It's the frustration of not knowing or being able to find out what we can expect.
I certainly don't see there being a problem for someone transporting their own bike in their van or on the back of a motorhome.
Fingers crossed. First we must be set free...

Hi AnTyx:

Russia is a very unique country (to put it politely) so far as immigration & customs requirements are concerned. For that reason, I don't think it is appropriate to use Russia as an example in the context of this discussion.

Before I retired, I used to deliver aircraft from the factory in Canada to customers all over the world. In an average year, I would land in 60 to 70 different countries. Half of those countries didn't require me to have a visa because I was considered aircrew on duty. The other 49% required a visa, but when I explained on the visa application that I was just passing through, the visa was issued without further inquiry. For Russia, though, the visa application form was 3 pages long, took 6 weeks to process, and costs about $500.

Similarly, no country other than Russia ever wanted any kind of paperwork on the aircraft I was delivering. It was obvious that the aircraft was new and was destined for someplace else & would only be in the country for a day or two. Not Russia, though... there was a whole really complicated process where I had to (in effect) sign the aircraft into the country, and then sign it out again when I left the country.

I'm not throwing stones at Russia, they have their way of doing things, and the customs and immigration authorities I met were always very polite and very professional. But, holy crow, did they ever require a ton of paperwork!

TL;DR: Best to not use Russia for comparison with any other country.

Michael

I mean, Britain has announced that direct airside transit through Heathrow will require a visa, so I am not inclined to dismiss the ability of Britain to shoot itself in the face. :P

To paraphrase Sir Michael Caine in his latest movie - the British may not have a monopoly on pointless bureaucracy, but certainly a controlling interest.

Revisiting this thread after 6 months because I have found very little clarity has been shed anywhere on the subject of vanning bikes into Europe without their owners present.

I have just come back from a trip to Spain, which involved me transporting my bike and 5 others in my van for the use of my friends and I for 4 days trail riding. PreBrexit I would have used the Portsmouth Le Havre boat, and driven down, but having "heard" tales of mixed receptions from French Customs officers, and "better" results from Spanish ones, I chose Portsmouth Santander. Other internet chat mentioned taking proof of intent to use the bikes for personal transport for use on holiday, letters of authority, etc etc...

My experience is this:
On arrival in Santander, the immigration officer looked in the back of the van, and I was directed into the customs check/something to declare area. There I had a long ish chat with the Aduanero. I had no documentation other than the registration documents (V5s)
He told me that one driver and a couple of bikes, one of which being the driver's own, would be accepted as private transportation, and basically overlooked. However, a large quantity such as I was carrying, is considered freight, irrespective of whether payment was involved, and as such a customs declaration is required. The declaration should be for temporary import, and would not require payment of any duty.
Rather than refuse me entry, fine me or make me fill out countless forms, the gentleman asked for 3 randomly chosen V5s, checked the VIN and registration numbers against the bikes, told me to do it properly next time and sent me on my way.

On my exit from Spain, a different agent asked for the customs paperwork, I explained what happened on the way in, and the original guy also meandered over to confirm my story. This time all 6 V5s were looked at to check they matched the bikes, but VINs were not inspected.

Of course, winging it like that is not recommended(!!) and I was given the distinct impression, through my half decent Spanish and the agents' half decent English (there was a short mutual alphabet pronunciation lesson over Y, F and W!) that they understand the confusion and lack of official guidance, but my sort of behaviour will not be tolerated for much longer.

Now the question still remains: What sort of customs declaration is required?
Whilst in Spain I met a chap who gave me the web address of a company who deals in ATA Carnets - which appear to me to be for all sorts of equipment temporarily imported into Europe (for example film industry equipment, unregistered vehicles etc) I have yet to contact them, but I understand the ATA carnet to be a different document to the carnet de passage en douane which people on this forum will be more aware of as the document required when countries don't have a TViP system (temporary vehicle import permit)

The clouds have yet to clear on this subject, but I thought my experience should be recorded if only to confirm that people planning to van multiple bikes into Europe DO have some hoops to jump through.

Incidentally, one of the friends on my trip recently took a vintage Frazer Nash race car to Ireland (Republic of) for a mate of his, and had broadly the same experience, except his customs inspector threatened an on the spot duty fee, which for such a vehicle would have been a substantial sum!

The company dealing with ATA Carnets, for anyone wanting to investigate for themselves, is www.boomerangcarnets.co.uk