 3Likes
 |
|
7 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 35
|
|
|
fake carnet? cheaper loosing vehicle than paying for a real one?
Let me start off by saying I would never do this and would and ever promote anyone doing this,
Looking at the costs of a real carnet in the UK via the rip off merchants that are the RAC, woulnt it be easier and cheaper just to fake a carnet?
Put it this way, at 800% for just an Egypt carnet i would loose less money if I was cought out and them taking my vehicle than actually getting a real carnet in the 1st place.
Very basic calculation of Egypt at 800%
£1000 (minimum) vehicle value = £8000 carnet
50% back on returning = total cost of £4000
If I got cought and lost my £1000 vehicle im still up £3000, and even if they fine me there own massive import duty of 240%, im still saving £600
When I received my last one years ago I got back 95% of the cost which was fine. I also remember the documents looking so basic. I'm a graphic designer and I recon I could make a full document in a matter of hours.
Or,a bit more legal....ish, just privately import your vehicle into each country and it will still be cheaper than a carnet.
Its only a silly idea and i have probaby got it wrong anyway, but it did cross my mind
Last edited by will-dakar; 7 Jan 2014 at 19:21.
|
7 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,731
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by will-dakar
Very basic calculation of Egypt at 800%
£1000 (minimum) vehicle value = £8000 carnet
50% back on returning = total cost of £4000
|
I´m not sure if those numbers are adding up.
I don´t know about RAC, but I had a carnet issued by the Finnish automobile association 6 years ago.It cost me about 250 euros, and then I also had to put up a deposit of 5000 euros (the bike´s value was maybe 8000 euros at the time, and my carnet was valid for Iran, Pakistan, India & Indonesia, and possibly other countries but cannot remember ). After I had finished the trip, and kept my carnet ´clean´ (= had all entry & exit stamps from all carnet countries) and the bike had returned home, I got the whole deposit back.
|
7 Jan 2014
|
 |
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: GOC
Posts: 3,364
|
|
|
If you're caught with a fake carnet, in addition to losing your bike, you might also get free board and lodge in a jail for a little (or long?) while. Or you might not.
Might be worth looking up carnet requiring countries' attitudes to attempting to defraud the State.
|
20 Feb 2014
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 834
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by lao_li
This is not europa in Africa you can solve most of the problems with a little money but as long as the boarder people dont even know how to stam a carned the right way (not the exit stamp first) i have no worrys using a faked one. I had no problems with it at all...
|
It is very relaxing when you know that everything is all right. The Paperwork is done and done the right way, your equipment is legal, your car is legal, you carry all the stuff other had to pay bills without (two extinguisher at sample for cars in some countrys).
Dont give you an attack surface who officals can use to start their game.
Quote:
|
as long as the boarder people dont even know how to stam a carned the right way
|
But thats too true. We use the carnet in Angola (where it is NOT accepted), because the border guy don`t know about. And we mostly had to help to handle the carnet the right way.
I guess that you can do an africa roundtrip with an fake carnet. When you stay relaxed in any case.
But I would alway prefere to know, that everything is all right. Specially when the caret costs are just arround 240 USD 
Risking much for less money dont looks like a good deal to me. Also when it is a pain to optain a carnet in some countrys.
Surfy
|
7 Jan 2014
|
 |
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the border - NE FR
Posts: 865
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pecha72
I´m not sure if those numbers are adding up.
I don´t know about RAC, but I had a carnet issued by the Finnish automobile association 6 years ago.It cost me about 250 euros, and then I also had to put up a deposit of 5000 euros
|
It varies with the issuing club. The French Automobile Club did not make any loadings for Iran or Egypt on my carnet 
I valued the bike at €1000  . Cost me about €300 for the carnet. Deposited €3k with the auto club which was returned to me.
You are being stiffed because its RAC Limited not the Royal Automobile Club. Its a business.
__________________
Nostradamus Ate My Hamster
|
7 Jan 2014
|
 |
Contributing Member
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 96
|
|
|
Need someone from UK to verify your costs. I've checked on getting mine for my German bike from the ADAC, I will have to pay for the carnet and leave a deposit which is returned in full
sent from my thingy, using whatchamacallit
|
8 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 35
|
|
Here is a link to another thread from HU about the UK costs,
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-rip-off-54541
If I get my Finnish girlfriend to apply from over there and have a Finnish vehicle then yes it soul cost next to nothing and worth it. Unfortunately here in the UK these are some of our prices,
Egypt = 800%
Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabi and most others = 500%
Its such an annoying scam by the RAC. If we in UK apply straight to ADAC then we are told we have to do it via the RAC 
|
8 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Posts: 360
|
|
|
Hi,
Doing it properly through the RAC last year i didn't have anything like the 8000 quid needed for a deposit (1000 pound vehicle with Egypt on the carnet) so used the insurance policy option.
Paid about 1600 quid upfront and got about 700 back at the end.
It's still a chunk of money, but nowhere near the 4000 mentioned earlier.
Happy travels
Sam
|
8 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 35
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niva Say Never
Hi,
Doing it properly through the RAC last year i didn't have anything like the 8000 quid needed for a deposit (1000 pound vehicle with Egypt on the carnet) so used the insurance policy option.
Paid about 1600 quid upfront and got about 700 back at the end.
It's still a chunk of money, but nowhere near the 4000 mentioned earlier.
Happy travels
Sam
|
Yeah that's what I did before but the RAC have put a stop to the insurace indemnity option so know you have to pay up in full.
|
9 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,731
|
|
|
BTW, I would think very carefully about faking official documents, and first find out, how comfortable the local jails are, because if you do get caught, there is a high possibility that you end up doing some time in them. I'm sure some have fantastic experiences faking stuff, but I'd still advice to remember that if you decide to go that route. Just my 0.02.
|
9 Jan 2014
|
 |
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 199
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by will-dakar
Yeah that's what I did before but the RAC have put a stop to the insurace indemnity option so know you have to pay up in full.
|
From the RAC site ...
Previously the RAC offered three ways of securing this risk – insurance indemnity, full cash deposit and bank guarantee.
Following a business review at the beginning of 2013 a decision was made to only offer insurance indemnity as security for CPDs due to the risk factors of the other options.
The bank guarantee was withdrawn because of low take-up, administration difficulties and legal requirements which vary from bank to bank. As, on average, only 4% of CPDs issued each year were secured by a bank guarantee, the RAC felt it was no longer economical to offer this as a security option.
|
9 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 35
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdayrider
From the RAC site ...
Following a business review at the beginning of 2013 a decision was made to only offer insurance indemnity as security for CPDs due to the risk factors of the other options.
The bank guarantee was withdrawn because of low take-up, administration difficulties and legal requirements which vary from bank to bank. As, on average, only 4% of CPDs issued each year were secured by a bank guarantee, the RAC felt it was no longer economical to offer this as a security option.
|
Yep, but its only UK that have done this and as RAC don't run the carnet's so they should not be allowed to do this.
They stopped it because 'apparently' over 75% of all the vehicles isued with carnets have never returned, I.e people from middle east buying them here and taking them back to there own countries to sell illegally. I can imagine a few but surely not over 75%.
If they were that worried they should just put a clause in the carnet saying if your not originaly from the country or have only been here for 10 years or less then you should not be issued with carnets. God i sound racest
|
8 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,731
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by will-dakar
If I get my Finnish girlfriend to apply from over there and have a Finnish vehicle then yes it soul cost next to nothing and worth it.
|
Unfortunately the Finnish AA has not issued carnets for about 3-4 years now. Everyone here must apply from Motormannen (Swedish AA). I have zero info about them.
But if I were you, I´d still try to ask nicely, if there is any chance to get the German ADAC to help you out.
|
15 Jan 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: London
Posts: 71
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by will-dakar
Let me start off by saying I would never do this and would and ever promote anyone doing this,
Looking at the costs of a real carnet in the UK via the rip off merchants that are the RAC, woulnt it be easier and cheaper just to fake a carnet?
Put it this way, at 800% for just an Egypt carnet i would loose less money if I was cought out and them taking my vehicle than actually getting a real carnet in the 1st place.
Very basic calculation of Egypt at 800%
£1000 (minimum) vehicle value = £8000 carnet
50% back on returning = total cost of £4000
If I got cought and lost my £1000 vehicle im still up £3000, and even if they fine me there own massive import duty of 240%, im still saving £600
When I received my last one years ago I got back 95% of the cost which was fine. I also remember the documents looking so basic. I'm a graphic designer and I recon I could make a full document in a matter of hours.
Or,a bit more legal....ish, just privately import your vehicle into each country and it will still be cheaper than a carnet.
Its only a silly idea and i have probaby got it wrong anyway, but it did cross my mind
|
Hi,
based on the RAC documentation in here:
http://www.rac.co.uk/pdfs/driving-ab...et-prices.aspx
The actual cost of getting the CdP with RAC for you would be:
242.4 £
Here is the calculation:
Highest risk country (Egypt) - 800%
Bike value - 1000 £
6% Insurance Premium Tax - 6%
Premium % - 10% (you pay only 10% of the risk value, and 50% of this amount will be returned)
25 pages CdP - 200 £
RAC Deposit (refund) - 350 £
TOTAL to pay: 634.8 £ (1000*8*1.06*0.1 + 200 + 350)
Money Back: 392.4 £ (350 + 1000*8*1.06*0.1*0.5)
Actual cost: 242.4 £
I think that's not too bad 
|
19 Feb 2014
|
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 35
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by hebbo
Hi,
based on the RAC documentation in here:
http://www.rac.co.uk/pdfs/driving-ab...et-prices.aspx
The actual cost of getting the CdP with RAC for you would be:
242.4 £
Here is the calculation:
Highest risk country (Egypt) - 800%
Bike value - 1000 £
6% Insurance Premium Tax - 6%
Premium % - 10% (you pay only 10% of the risk value, and 50% of this amount will be returned)
25 pages CdP - 200 £
RAC Deposit (refund) - 350 £
TOTAL to pay: 634.8 £ (1000*8*1.06*0.1 + 200 + 350)
Money Back: 392.4 £ (350 + 1000*8*1.06*0.1*0.5)
Actual cost: 242.4 £
I think that's not too bad |
Unfortunately they have stopped the 10% premium due to it know being high risk for them as apparently only 20% of all vehicles are returned.
so you have to pay the full 100% of the insurance premium, do for my £1000 bike =£8000 then 50% back on return.
Here's a link to someone who has just tried getting a carnet and has looked into in better than me
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-rip-off-54541
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes.
(ONLY US RESIDENTS and currently has a limit of 60 days.)
Ripcord Evacuation Insurance is available for ALL nationalities.
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Every book a diary
Every chapter a day
Every day a journey
Refreshingly honest and compelling tales: the hights and lows of a life on the road. Solo, unsupported, budget journeys of discovery.
Authentic, engaging and evocative travel memoirs, overland, around the world and through life.
All 8 books available from the author or as eBooks and audio books
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|
helps answer the question - Why Go? Inspirational stories by veteran travellers Greg Frazier (5 times RTW), Peter and Kay Forwood (193 countries), Tiffany Coates (Mongolia Mayhem) and Rene Cormier (University of Gravel Roads).
Get Ready! covers planning, paperwork, medical and many other topics! "Inspirational and Awesome!" See the trailer here!
What stuff do I need - riding gear, clothing, camping gear, first aid kit, tires, maps and GPS? What don't I need? How do I pack it all in? Lots of opinions from over 150 travellers!
Ladies on the Loose! For the first time ever, a motorcycle travel DVD made for women, by women! These intrepid women share their tips to help you plan your own motorcycle adventure. They also answer the women-only questions, and entertain you with amazing tales from the road! Presented by Lois Pryce, veteran solo traveller through South America and Africa and author of 'Lois on the Loose', and 'Red Tape and White Knuckles.'
Cotton or synth sweat-wicking t-shirts with the cool Horizons Unlimited graphic on the front and a snappy slogan (changing every year) on the back.
Show your route on your panniers. Great conversation starter when you meet people on the road!
Motorcycle and travel books to inspire and inform you!
The definitive guide to planning your motorcycle adventure! This insanely ambitious 2-year project has produced an informative and entertaining 5-part, 18 hour video series. "The ultimate round the world rider's how-to!" MCN UK.
Hybrid Mode
