More scary still: what if he is in fact judging the typical HUBB poster accurately?

I've been watching this all unfolding from afar, fascinated by the possibilities but busy touring another corner of the globe. It seems to me that the OP has, at the very least, a serious communication problem....which he seems inclined to blame on others. This is not what you'd be looking for in a tour guide. Far preferable if he was apologetic and made a point of understanding the disappointment (I'm being polite here) of those who expressed an interest in another sort of trip.

I also wonder whether some sort of line has been crossed into self-promotion of a sort which I'd call advertising. If so, I wonder whether it is being paid for.

I'm trying to phrase this in terms of my curiosity and observations, rather than by making accusations. Hope that comes through.

Safe journeys!

Mark

(still in Cali, still waiting for parts, feeling increasingly restless)

Great points...IMHO any business, especially a start-up, not open to criticism is doomed.

Here is a quote from "Brett"s webside. (nasty)Veteran Hubbers be warned.

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Poul
May you enjoy peace and good health !

Looks like a nice web site, Brett. Though I think your heart's in the right place, I can understand why some people may feel unhappy that you've changed your original offer. You did pretty much double the price, from what I can make out.

As an aside, if Brett's trips are fully booked, we're just starting out too, and working out our prices for our tours next year, which will be pretty close to "cost". The plan is to one day make money doing this, but at this stage, it's more about having fun, adventure (albeit usually, but not always, with a bit of comfort at the end of the day's ride) and finding our feet. We're looking at doing a women only tour, too, but that's not on the site yet.

I expect I'm preaching to the converted here, but whether you go with Brett, come with us, or find your own way into the majestic Indian Himalaya, just make sure you get there somehow, because that road to Ladakh really is something else. It's a life-changing, spiritual, inspiring part of the world. I'm getting shivers up my spine and maybe even a little tear in the corner of my eye just thinking about the sheer beauty of the place and the friendliness of the people as I write this. Every day I've spent in Himachal Pradesh and Jammu and Kashmir has been an adventure, often challenging, always exciting.

I'm based in (south) London (the UK one), my phone number's on my website, as is my address and even a picture of me, so if you want to chat about mountains, motorbikes, our tours, or about the last good book you read, either call, email or even pop round if you're in the area.

Have a good weekend.

Chris.

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http://www.wowbiketours.com

First of all I would like to thank Grant on Horizon's unlimited for all his support, it has been appreciated.

Our first tour is now fully booked, and our second and third tours only have a few spots left. A lot more than we expected, especially considering some very aggressive comments from some very old, cynical individuals who obviously have a lot of baggage they need to unload.!!

After reading the last few threads on my blog, I feel it is time to respond.

First of all, I do have to apologize for giving you an idea of price a few months ago, that didn't turn out to be. Believe me when I say my intention was to provide an amazing experience at a very cheap price, and even at the price I offered it is still very reasonable. I had too many people who were looking for an all inclusive experience, and was more than happy to provide for them.

To those individuals who have personally attacked myself, all I have to say is, well...... stick it. Their was only 3 or 4 of you ( You know who you are ). The only name I would like to mention is Paul.... you do not represent the Danish people, and I am sure they would do everything they can to distance themselves from your aggression.

Never at any stage was their any constructive criticism, only attack, attack, attack. What a shame!! I can only imagine that they are either very lonely in life, or have wives or partners who are very unhappy with what they have.

As far as the recent jab about the quality of my tour guiding experience.

I have worked all around the world as a guide, and am highly respected in my profession. I feel I have taken these attacks, and dealt with them with the utmost dignity.

To those cynical OLD individuals, all I can say is thank god you are not joining us. You would have just made life miserable for the other guests on this experience. I would also have to say that your personalities would not blend in very well with the Ladakhi way of life. The people in Ladakh have a very easy going attitude, and do not respond well to aggression.

To those individuals who have booked on the tour, you are all going to have an amazing journey, and look forward to meeting you next year. I am sure we will all have a laugh about a few of the individuals that we have come across on Horizons.....

Regards

Brett

World On Wheels

Oddly enough, you're not sounding very dignified from where I sit. Guess it takes all types....but you might want to take this perspective into account. Or not: it's entirely your call.

Best of luck with your venture.

Mark

Hi Chris,

I do appreciate your words. However I think the fact that you are trying to point people to your website will backfire.

You have not come across as professional, and I have already received a few emails from people who are shying far away from your company, simply for that reason.

If we meet on the road we can sit down and discuss some basic etiquette.

We put the blog on Horizons, out itinerary etc, which you copied nearly word for word. As soon as you saw our business name you were very quick to put up your own advertising, and to be honest it did not bother me.

I do wish you luck with your business, however I feel that you do not have the experience in the industry to provide the adventure that people are looking for. I don't think that being in India a few times gives you the ability to provide a quality experience. I also understand that you are looking to make some money, and return to your base in England.

We at the real WOW, live 90% of our time in India and our money stays here and supports the local people. In fact we use an organization here in India for all our logistics that are very highly regarded in the industry. I have lived in India for many years, and know the place back to front.

This is not a really a jab at you Chris, more an observation. You saw some negative comments, and decided this was an opportunity for you to promote yourself.

Regardless of all that... once again .... i wish you luck. And do hope that your dreams come true.

Regards

Brett
WOW

No comment :confused1:

__________________
Poul
May you enjoy peace and good health !

Brett

What an amazing tirade, are you on medications or something? It is still unclear whether I am one of the boring old farts you refer to, but whatever... If I'm not, then after reading what I'm about to say below you will undoubtedly add me to your blacklist.

You need to understand that when you attack people publicly as you have done here, it starts alarm bells ringing as to your suitability or otherwise to act as a leader to a group of disparate individuals who will each have their own agendas as to what they want out of a tour. How are you going to handle this when your group is halfway up the mountains in India--throw a hissie fit every time someone challenges your opinion?

Will you walk out on the group, burst into tears, or throw the dissenters off the tour? You need to calm down, take adversity in your stride, and above all, please please please get some advice on how to improve your customer relations.

Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people who are older than you--you seem to have an ageism prejudice. You seem ready to quickly form a very black and white view of people that you have yet to meet. You've decided on the basis of whether someone has sent you $500 that these are the good guys and the rest are not.

Kevin Saunders of Globebusters has written a great series of articles for Motorcycle Sport and Leisure magazine on many aspects of motorcycle touring and some of these covered the dynamics of tour leading and how to get people with different objectives to pull together on a tour. I encourage you to try to find back issues of these articles and have a read.

However... I have to say that having read your latest diatribes on this forum and attacks on long-standing forum contributors there is no way I would consider participating in anything you organise. You've well and truly blown it as far as I'm concerned.

Despite what was posted about your Challenge being a no-profit ride, this isn’t the case. Having seen some of the backgrounder info, the problem with the arrangements is that absolutely everything is being organised by a third-party holiday company, who of course are not doing this for free, and the prices are undoubtedly higher than could be achieved by travellers or someone operating a tour without a third-party organiser.

When you started this thread six weeks ago (not 'a few months ago') you stated
- some options will be posted for us to consider (this didn’t happen)
- will see what people are looking for before deciding how long the journey would be (this didn’t happen)
- will not be asking for money up front, people will pay their own way (now asking for money up front)
- close to the New Year will investigate options such as support vehicles (now bundled with no choice)

I also wasn’t impressed when you sent out an email with everyone’s email address as a ‘cc’ rather than a ‘bcc’, this is definitely not business netiquette. Mind you it probably wasn't a bad thing as it has enabled us 'very old cynical HUBBers' to have a full off-line discussion on the issues.

It's nice of you to thank Grant for "all his support". I bet he's equally glad. Now that you're accepting bookings on your second and third tours I hope you will be paying HU for your advertising.

Tim

PS: and by the way, this is NOT 'your blog', it's a thread on a forum.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Out of interest I checked the whois domain registration records for these two companies.

wowbiktours.com (Chris's domain) was registered 31 July 2009
wowwheels.com.au (Brett's domain) was registered 26 November 2009, i.e. eight days ago

So who is copying who?

The boring ancient old veteran fart previously known as Tim

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Tim,

Thanks for the advice. Nothing against 'OLD' people at all.Is that what you consider yourself to be, or maybe just cynical!!!. Yes, we have a partner here in India, as is only fair..... I am not Indian. All our employees are Indian's, and YES they need to be paid for their services.

My advice to you is, if you did not like the price of the tour. DON"T COME!! Why try and convert others??? What are your motives?????

As far as bursting into tears, I feel once again that you are projecting the image you have of yourself onto me. Mate, after 20 years experience in guiding, it is only fair that I tell you, that yes, occasionally you come across people like yourself.!!! Think they know it all!!!. Been there done that!!!.Me, I just laugh it off, after all I enjoy my job, and don't take it personally. however being attacked publicly, is a different story.

However, you have made a few good points, and I will take note. Never too old to learn..

As far as your research is concerned.... World On Wheels was registered 3 years ago. Again you show your motives are less than moral. Our website, however,as you are aware was only launched recently.

Once again I say this to you. Of course I am going to react to being attacked. I am only human. IF YOU DIDN"T WANT TO DO THE TOUR, THEN WHY DIDN"T YOU JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT?????

Brett

World On Wheels

Writing as a HuBB member rather than a Mod, I feel it slightly disingenuous to belittle potential punters on this forum. Were I interested in joining a tour in the Himalayas, you'd be on my blacklist. Just MHO as a ex-potential-punter, not a Mod.

FWIW, it's very easy to sort everything yourself:

Indian Himalayas TBSdotCom

Also read the relevant bits in Mr Scott's AMH

Chris (definitely NOT Scott)

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Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

This thread is closed.
It has turned into a flame war, and we don't need that on the HUBB.

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Japan touring information