Oh WOW! Now this is 10 out of 10 points of bollocks and very shameful speculation (100% wrong also):

"part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top ... by whatever means necessary"

There lies your problem of all the discussion covered under BMW and other topics:

If you don't know anything about - can you please just shut up and stop speculating!?

Basing on your "pseudo-theory" racing as a reliability lab: then why aren't KTM singles 100% bomb proof reliable? They've raced them for ages now.



So for example, what's Suzukis excuse to have poor reliability performance areas like:

Electrics (overall)
Fuel Injection (i.e. 3500rpm surge on Stroms)
Clutch
Poor plastics



Can you please show us the list of those thousands documented cases? (Ask from your good friends at the consumer protection company maybe? Or industry-insiders?)



Again wrong fact. Öhlins has been bought out by Europeans some time ago now (Kenth Öhlins himself owns 95%), Yamaha no longer owns residuals.


If I have time I'll dig into shares and index history of Motorrad's economy. While it holds no importance for the discussion would be interesting to check if your FACT is true or not.



Wrong about the money spend. I haven't seen any BMW motorcycle ad in TV while I've seen dozens of the Big Four ads in TV in dozens of contries.

BMW is a tiny bit compared to any of the Japanese maker. Japanese Big Four have dominated the motorcycle market for a long time, they have the most money in Ads and thus also control the mythology inside the biker community.



I see Japanese bikes ads in various mags, from car to fashion mags, while I've seen just few BMW ads in non-motorcycle issues.



Why do you lie again?



We're still waiting the details of the super-precise high quality reliable data source. It might be exacly what any HUBB newbie looks for on choosing the bike!


Buy one, which ever you like, own it at least 2 years, put more than 30K on the clock in various conditions. Then share your views as an owner.

Then we can talk. (as you say)

+1

That's what I've been trying to say all along.


So what you mean would be someting in the lines of:

For Mollydog, Ein-Stonians (as he calls us) are fat-eaten wannabe elite, who ride BMWs thus know nothing about motorcycles and better should not exist (of course, also BMW shouldn't exist)?

The only correct nation/people are those who ride only Japanese bikes? Everything else is outrageously unreliable and pointless?


I find it pity, when person talks too much (about matters he/she has no long-term or direct experience with) and posting wrong facts makes him/her look like a very experienced person and others automatically take it for granted, without questions.


I stand corrected. Good to see HUBB promotes "sincerity" and "open mind"

This thread appears to be getting out of hand. Remember the header to "Which Bike?" reads:

Firstly, whether you care about it or not, I will say that up until now I was merely having a discussion with you on this topic. Up until now, I have had respect for your posts in the past as you seemed approachable, knowldgable and even-handed.
I'm sorry to say that is no longer the case.

You have just made numerous personal attacks on Margus and myself, relating to Estonia and place you clearly know very little about.

You are also putting words into my mouth: I never once said you were lying, I merely asked for you to provide the facts and figures to back your reference to facts and figures: not the same as saying you are a liar.

So, no, not a cheap shot... a fabricated shot...

I said it once, but I'll say it again:
I am Anglo-french: I grew up in the UK and I've been riding since the age of 19. I have owned plenty of bikes from the big 4 and enjoyed all of them. My experiences are not based on the Estonian market.

I know that there are many relaible bikes from Japan: I have never said the contrary. In fact, I have owned a number of them myself... Unfortunately, the G-wing and your beloved DL are the only two you seem to keep referring to...

You seem stuck in a cycle where Japanese being relaible, automatically means that German is not: not sound logic...

If you want to be taken seriously as a poster and as a journalist you might was to learn a thing or two about accuracy in your writing.
I am stunned that despite my post being two entries behind yours and you quoting it, you still manage to get what I said wrong.

My exact words:
As for HD. They are grotesquely under-tuned. 60bhp from a 1.3 litre engine? no wonder they keep going , although the Electra glide we met in Argentian had nothing but problems...
And I must say, do not know if you speak for the US market or world-wide, but US roads are hardly the most taxing on the vehicle, are they?
Pay attention...


I'm sure you thought that was the height of wit.... Now that is a cheap shot...

Once more, if you just had a look at my post you would see that the currency symbol I used was £. All my running costs for the BM, apart from our trip, were in the UK

What? No pads, air-filters or oil filters?
Why, I suggest you get on your bike and ride it a little then, seeing as they need replacing every few thousand miles....

Aftermarket parts are equally available for BMWs.... So this lends no weight to your point. The point relates only for OEM parts, like for like and OEM parts from the big 4 are very expensive, and this is how a large portion of their revenue is generated.

Sorry: that is very poor.
I can't believe someone who claims to be a journalist has come to name calling and having a dig at a country they know nothing about, and yet alluding to it being somehow backward.... Sad.
As for being defensive: stop being so aggressive! If you call having an opposing view to yours and asking for justification to your claims as defensive, so be it...

I keep repeating myself, but never mind:
I do not have any problems with any of the Japanese bike companies: what I have a problem with is you and making accusations about a brand you obviously don't like and which you have repeatedly failed to back up with figures despite saying you are privvy to a wealth of information.
Now you say it was from a paper article in a single publication....


Yep, I think your credibility is definitely settled...

As for knowing you from Adam, the same could be said about you knowing me, and yet you spent a large portion of this post making accusations, assumptions and presumptions... is this how you write all your pieces?

And posting smileys after saying something designed to be rude, still makes it rude...

As for this discussion, as someone quite rightly pointed out, this does not serve the purposes of the original question, so I've said my piece.

I'm just sad that you felt you needed to resort to the sort of tone you did... through out this thread I have remained perfectly civil toward you.
(I won't post a smiley....)

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Good point there Wuming.

All bikes will do the job. As far as I'm concerned, BMW in general is the Dark Side. Alluring, tempting, flashing - but it comes with a hefty price tag. I know. I've been there. Guzzi and all the bikes that I own, otoh, are from the Good Side. Everybody knows that. Right?

May the 4 stroke force be with you all.

__________________
HansP
All you wanted to know
about riding in Norway

I agree with the latter part. I'm not native English, for me the fact said wrong is a lie, especially in the context of building someone's "bashing-scene" on it to make and find negative points. If the word 'lie' is too offensive somehow for native English speakers name me the alternative and I'll correct it.

And also agree on statistically weighted reports - BUT this must be done by unbiased organisation built up for statistical basis, not someone in the forum (and as said from my point of view: especially those who haven't owned a product but still try to rate them).

The only real-life reliability survey done I know on bike is the UK's 10,000 (statistical population selection) bikers surveyed back in 2004.

See here.

The results have been disputed many times here and in various other forums (i.e. BMW doesn't have any real offroad bikes that take the beating and are with short maintenance intervals etc factors of different makes), but there hasn't been any other hands-on survey on real-life reliability of motorcycles. That's the only statistics currently I know done on the reliability of bikes.

"Ride Magazine
English motorcycle magazine, Ride, has published their survey results amongst 10,000 motorcyclists in the United Kingdom in this month's publication.

The motorcyclists were asked how reliable their motorcycle is. Results:"

1. BMW (90%)
2. Honda (89.2%)
3. Yamaha (85.5%)
4. Triumph (84%)
5. Suzuki (83.2%)
6. Kawasaki (82.8%)
7. MZ (81.3%)
8. Harley-Davidson (80.1%)
9. Aprilia (77.1%)
10. KTM (74%)
11. Buell (72.2%)
12. Cagiva (70.5%)
13. Ducati (69.1%)
14. Moto Guzzi (68.8%)
15. CCM (63.8%)
"


As with any statistical result, it shows averages, anyone can interpret it in own way.

What?!? Moto Guzzi on 14th??! It can't be!

__________________
HansP
All you wanted to know
about riding in Norway

Hang on a minute!!

When the heck did Ural slip out of the top 10: they kept that one quiet....

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Hey Pimp Yoda,

Lol, see the hornets nest that you inadvertently poked with what seemed like a simple question but ended up being a big stick?

With your long background in bikes and experience in South Africa you are already way ahead of most and when coming down, you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Are you going east coast? If so, having your brother along will be a multiple blessing, not only to share a once in a lifetime experience but as you say to carry some of your gear!

One route I would suggest if you are going east coast is to go along Lake Turkana instead Moyale in northern Kenya. The route is rougher, and much, much less travelled, but was certainly a highlight. With a truck to carry a lot of your weight and the spare fuel and water, the riding will be easier to enjoy and it is truly is unique corner of Africa.


And last off topic comments:

First, the views held by Mollydog, while sometimes at the extreme, do serve a purpose in that they stir the pot and balance a lot of the preconceptions that exist in the general public. I'm sure a lot of people begin the dream to ride around the world and have in their mind that they have to use a BMW to do so.

As we all know that is not true, many options exist and this thought sort of thinking has to be jarred out of them so they can make a reasoned choice amongst options, sometimes better suited to their specific trip, sometmes not. I can't tell you how many people around the world, with varying levels of experience, would walk up to me and make comments along the lines of "I'm going to ride around the continent, as soon as I get a BMW of course, are you able to get by with your inferior bike?". This became funny after a while, and even funnier after I actually switched bikes and was riding a new model BMW.

Kudos to BMW, this has been hard earned product recognition, based on many years of experience and dedication to long distance and world touring and focused marketing. And comments by Margus and others show this, any business would be proud to have such commited and supportive customers. We should continue to be nice to BMW as well, they are pushing an area that is pretty much a niche to the big guys, even though it is the center of our world. That's probably part of the reason we are so passionate about it.

Plus, the BMW riders and Japanese riders should unite for even more reasons, there is a new enemy in town. As I mentioned before, the most common western bike that I saw in Africa was KTM, and based on my experience, their smugness has exceeded that purported to belong to owners of other brands. Rise up all, the real enemy is not KTM, but the KTM riders (Herby, we know who you are

The survey results are interesting. Ask 10000 riders if they think their bike is reliable and you mostly get an opinion. Of the 10,000 lets say 1000 ride a particular brand, of that how many actually rode enough miles to break down (Urals excluded, even I managed to breakdown five times in 6 months 10,000 km). Lies, ****** lies and statistics or just an oddly worded question? The sample size is in any case too small. I can read the result as 90% of BMW's are reliable or 90% of BMW owners think they are reliable. Is this good bikes or good marketing?

Tough one isn't it

I don't think any rider of any bike is an enemy BTW. The ones who bought their mega cycles and half the Touratech catalogue but can't check their own oil level provide more imeadiate entertainment that the ones actually going places on twenty year old hacks held together with duct tape, but heck, anything's better than not going

Andy

Thanks MountainMan. I did seem to open a hornets nest. In my life I have only owned Japanese bikes. 1 Suzuki, 3 Yamaha's and 2 Kawa's and 1 Honda. Never owned a brand new bike in my life. These bikes have all had their problems including the last bike I owned (Honda) seized the engine so badly that the connrod went staight through the sump.

Needless to say, every bike will give you troubles eventually if you do'nt take care of it properly, Jap or German.

The input has been overwhelming and what I have learnt is to go out and speak to people who has done the journey and ask about common problems to prepare myself in the best possible way no matter what I'm riding.

I'll also go out and test a few bikes and make up my own mind before investing in a friend for life (i hope)

Thanks again and speak soon.

Ps: I will need some advice on the carnet as I do want to sell the bike in SA eventually.

Have fun testing and let us know what you decide, PimpYoda. There is a lot of carnet stuff to read up on, there is a fairly recent post that talks about selling a UK bike in South Africa by bikerfromsark. Be aware that the standard line is that you can't, and the kindly gent who issues the carnet also reads this site so be careful of all the jokes you make about him



"I don't think any rider of any bike is an enemy BTW."

Lol, you are certainly correct, threewheelbonnie. In my experience, on the road, all riders are friends and the great "my bike is better than your bike" debates are mostly reserved for bored people on the internet who are killing time until they can get out riding.

Around the campfire, there are plenty of good humored jabs, (hence my joke) but it's all in good fun, most people are on the road are very, very humble because we all know we are one small problem away from getting towed into town and in remote locations, even small problems can take a lot of time and money to fix. You just hope that your friends aren't quick enough to film the towing and post it on the internet

Hi guys, I've just finished a pretty long trip with my Dakar and have been very happy with it- no breakdowns! I've ridden the standard GS too, though not nearly as far. I didn't like the smaller front wheel on the standard GS when riding off-road. Maybe I needed more time off-road with it. I really do like that 21" front wheel on the Dakar though, just my preference. In Siberia I met a South Korean man who had completed a RTW ride on a standard GS. He went through 3 stock shocks on his trip! I broke my Ohlins in Africa and it wasn't a cheap fix. The Korean guy is on a DR650 now and is happy with the bike. His buddy is a new rider and chose a KTM950. He fell down on the stretch from Khabarovsk to Chita and broke his arm. They put the bikes on the train and spent 6 weeks healing in Mongolia. Have fun- whatever you ride!

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For an overland trip you'd better of with a Dakar, and thorough preparation of the bike, in my experience.
Look I just spent 1 year motorcycling aorund south america, doing lots of tough dirt roads. I had the F650GS (fitted with a White Power rear shock), the husband had the Dakar.
I had a never ending list of problems with. I won't retype all here. IF you take a F650, check my feedback here: bikes


I am not slacking there, I am just listing thing sthat you should keep an eye on. Also make sure to repalce the rear shock, or you won't go far.

Good luck with your preparations!

I forgot to say, since I came back from travelling last May, my bike has been in and out of workshops constantly! I got it back after yet more work last Saturday. I took it on test ride on sunday, phoned workshop again today (Monday) for yet ANOTHER problem... GAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

__________________
Maria

www.franglais-riders.com