Looks like the bike has been through a lot. Indeed.

Post us a similar blog report with such detail about any Japanese bike or similar having been through the same third-world conditions, distance and abuse, then how many bits replaced etc. Then we can compare.

Yes indeed, it'd take years to go through all the faulty Japanese bikes have reported in ADVrider forum only, let alone other forums, staring with dozens of reports of blown clutches on V-Stroms that's supposed to be bomb-proof reliable according to you. Should I start posting them here?

For a start: Problems with the V-Strom DL1000 - Pashnit Motorcycle Forum


Some excrepts:

" I am a Vstrom owner going on a week, my bike is a DL1000 05
model 400 miles under my belt and this bike runs like crap, and it is
apparent that I am not the only one out there. Surges, dies when you
stop, backfires through the air breather."

"Some of them have loose throttle bodies,or badly out of sync throttle bodies, and
a few with bad ECUs."

"I can understand how you feel, I am getting my 3rd clutch basket tomorrow.
I have had problems from day one,"

"Suzuki needs to step up to the plate, and fix the
problem, this is the worst running motorcyle I have
ever owned! If I wanted to work on a bike constantly I
would have bought one of my cousins H-D!!! I want to
ride down the road, not jerk down the road!!"

True there were some trouble with the clutch in the early model DL1000´s. I believe they had a recall about it. And from K4? onwards it was changed.

Other than that, there has been very few complaints about the model. Most of the so-called problems with throttle bodies, injection, etc., are self-induced, by people who think they know how to tune these, but dont. Thats not a design fault.

The DL1000 can be compared to any Beemer regards reliability, in fact if properly maintained, it may well outlast the German bike. Its got a lot less problems than 1200GS anyway.

I am not going to post you copyrighted publications. your dogma is simply not worth it.


the bmw GS club holland R1200GS quality poll:
BMW GS Club Nederland :: Bekijk onderwerp - 1200GS(-A) kwaliteits poll

please note the drive line failures in the postings.



too hot exhaust valves?
BMW GS Club Nederland :: Bekijk onderwerp - Het blijft kwakkelen...

Looks like even the Police are leaving BMW!

Bikes in the Fast Lane - Daily Motorcycle News

(but I'm sure this publication are lying, right Margus? )


I wonder how the Vstrom won that Motorad Alps challenge if it is so
bad?

BTW, Suzuki's problems with the early Vstorm are minor compared to the very long history of BMW problems and then denial by BMW AG.

Should I post some history lessons from dealers who have published the truth about how BMW's bikes and how they do business?


Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

So this proves the point, Japanese bikes aren't fault free eighter.


Apparently the guys complainig let the job be done by a Suzuki delaer, dealer induced faults then?

So you have first hand experience to prove it outlasts any Beemer if both are ridden similarly and maintained similarly?


Anyways, you probably already guess where I'm aiming:

What news do we mostly hear? It's the bad news that make the news!

In the Bike magazine reliability survey BMW scored 90%, meaning averagely 9 bikes out of 10 have been reliable and problem-free. Japanese makers scored similar results. Thus near 10% problem (big or small) rates on each of them.

So if the production number of R1200GS is now well over 100,000 bikes, it's the most produced one big trailie bike model in history. You'd need at least over 1000 reports of broken final drives to make up the 1% of failures, 10,000 reports to make that 10% failure. R1200GS has been in producion for 4 years - with Mollydog's logic to obtain data from forums then ADVrider should have at least 2 broken drive shaft threads per day to make up only 1% failure rate, that's over 14 broken FD reports per week. 140 FD reports to make the "average" 10% rate when we look at the reliabiity survey data. Or over 25,000 thousand broken bikes - 140 breakdown reports per week to make that catastrophic 25% failure rate quote here. That's 17 breakdown reports per day - internet should have overfilled with bitter reports.

Yah, while I'm pretty sure earlier R1200GSes had their own teething problems just like Japanese cousinsins (like early V-Strom example, or any other), but still as is an overall picture it's over-emphasized if you count the production numbers.

I'm not a owner of R1200GS, but with the analogy posted above I'd say we, very probably, look at the "sauer-grapes" situation purely thanks to exceptionally large volume of production numbers per 1 model of bike. Happy R1200GS owners don't report their good experiences into forums, but un-happy owners most certainly will report. So count the bad numbers, divide it with production numbers and prove me wrong.

This is probably the first post in this forum where you haven't lied and found information source other than village gossip. But don't think this has made up the rest of your bashing lies or false facts Mollydog

Never heard of it but BMW won the Dark Dog Tour, and they've sold over 100,000 R1200GSes already, so it can't be that bad eithter? I though you were supposed to talk about the big famous competitions only? I haven't seen any V-Stroms on podium spots on Erzberg or Pikes Peak.

I see you still haven't got my point. Never said V-Strom is bad (not crap, as you say), just using your very own analogy example to demonstrate how you bash BMWs in the same way, see yourself through mirror? (I've never owned V-Strom and I bash it with sauer-grapes examples - feels "good" to hear it as a V-Strom owner eh? )

It's always just sooo easy to bash. Especially if you haven't owned one


I don't think the V-Strom owners who had faulty bikes agree with you. If I may use your own analogy, while I haven't owned one myself: it's the COMMON KNOWLEDGE among V-Strom owners the early bikes will most certanly have clutch blown, throttle bodies vibrated loose already from factory, faulty EFIs or even ECUs and other silly problems unheard of on other makers, all the electricity fault reflect my own Suzuki ownership experience in the past While Suzuki hasn't fixed the problems on many bikes or denied the problem. See the links I posted.

You can always laugh and you're always free to do it, but don't forget to divide everything with production numbers, then compare to other bikes statistics numbers obtained in identical unbiased way to compile the real picture. We all look for truth out here.

Dogma - usage tends to carry a pejorative connotation—referring to concepts as being "established" only according to a particular point of view, and thus one of doubtful foundation.

So you tell me, which is more probable: the dogma coming coming from people who have never owned the product or those who've owned the product?

Or are you afraid to publish copyrighted publications? (in fact those would be the only sources I'd trust, as I've already mentioned before - it's only the credible sources we can rely on, not forum examples)


Unfortunately I don't understand Duch . Would be interesting to read the thoughts and discussions posted there.

Many similar polls have been posted in UKGSer and ADVrider that I've kept my eye constantly on, but certainly nowhere near 25% mark failures as you quoted. So would be very interesting to know how they obtain their rates.

[quote=Margus;203918]So this proves the point, Japanese bikes aren't fault free eighter.

No, they are not. All bikes can have problems. But it is the number of problems that count, and while I admit the 1200GS has been sold a lot, you hear awful lot of similar stories from them. Similar from year to year, similar from forum to forum, as well as if you talk to users. I dont think its all just made up.




Apparently the guys complainig let the job be done by a Suzuki delaer, dealer induced faults then?

Not induced by Suzuki dealers, but usually by the owners themselves, or some workshops, who have no knowledge of the bike but still work on them.



So you have first hand experience to prove it outlasts any Beemer if both are ridden similarly and maintained similarly?

I said "it may well outlast", not that it will 100%. That will depend on so many factors other than build quality itself, it will probably be impossible to prove one way or the other. The point was, Suzuki is nowadays up there with the best, when reliability is in question. In the past, BMW may have been the bike that lasts (though Suzuki´s also had some pretty tough bikes, like GSX1100, starting from the 80´s) but now there are others to choose from, too. And newest generation Beemers seem to have become a bit too complicated to keep that reputation up to the fullest. Japanese know better to keep things simple.

That's true Japanese usually are simple average consumer bikes, but they also have some more complex and interesting bikes. I.e. single sided front Yamaha GTS, or radial-pistoned Honda comes into my mind.

In this week's MCN article BMW admits quality problems with ring antenae and fuel pump controller. Apparently with 7000 bikes sold (from over 100,000 produced) having suffered the problem in some way, which, when looking at one model basis, brings the reliability ratio close to the Bike mag survey which was also 1 out of 10 bikes (90% reliability) having problems IF you add other potential problems like final drive etc. So given the complexity of their electronics and technologies there might be some truth about being harder to control the quality from that side, especially like now when the market need grows over their heads - they still can't produce R1200GSes as much as the market requires them although they're constantly expanding the production.

Good thing is BMW addresses the problem and sure will fix it if it's already made a media scandal. Addressing a problem - something Suzuki hasn't been able to do with it's silly loose contacts and untaped electric wires for ages as I've seen with mine and other GSX bikes prone to end with complete electric breakdowns.

As always, there're two sides of the coin...

Good roads, Margus

in this weeks UK MCN there is an article about BMW and its recent quality control issues. The UK General Manager Adrian Roderick says that the company has been increasing its production run for the last four years (since LWR), and 'you are prone to things going adrift', when ramping up production.

This is modern business, and the same thing is happening over at Apple. Another niche company that suddenly lots of people wanted. They are happy to ramp up production and take the money, and then quietly deal with the problems later.

The article says BMW have appointed a troubleshooter, to help with the quality issues. This troubleshooter is reporting directly to Hendrick von Kuenheim, BMW's head of motorycles.

The UK GM says that quality is tracked by warranty costs, and as sales increased so did the warranty cost per bike. Now the troubleshooter has been brought on, they say the warranty cost is dropping.

The faults listed in the article are the immbiliser (across the range) and the 1200GS fuel pump relay. The UK GM says these are just the latest to arise since the surge in sales, going back 4 years.

Although faults under production strain are understandable, the firms response to this is a bit bad. Rather than issue recalls, they seem to have told dealers to replace the faulty parts at the next service (on the quiet). So if you service it yourself, you won't have had the parts replaced.

So, they danced with the media devil, took the money, messed up a bit, and now are coming clean and doing something about it. Fair enough. But I guess if you have a post-LWR bike, it's worth a trip to you dealer to find out about the faults list. As there's no convenient dealer servicing out on the road, which is what their GS/ADV bikes are all about.

I'm wary of posting at the bottom of this thread, as (like me) most people are probably ignoring it as a spat between a few interested parties. But if you're planning a trip on a new-ish beemer, I think it's worth being aware of this and getting your bike checked.

(this is all in UK MCN, so could be completely fabricated and blown out of all proportion)

Good post Dougie

MCN I doubt are telling porkies on this one. The fact they are using real names of real people at BMW precludes that. No surprise at all as to the results. And I doubt this Thread is "at the bottom". Check out the number of views it has had!

In the USA we have our own MCN .... Motorcycle Consumer News. This month they've published an interesting article about Final Drive failures. To say this problem is endemic would be understating it. I have not received my copy yet so have not read it but it is more a technical article including drawings, detailing WHY the FD's fail.

What I think Margus and others don't get is how much more common failures are in the USA and how well documented they are on the various
BMW Owners club boards. The biggest clubs being the BMWMOA and RA boards, followed by five or six other more specialized boards dealing with GS, RT and LT BMW's.

Also, over on ADVrider (huge) Gspot members consistently RE-POST many of the problems brought up on the other boards onto ADV rider. Suffice to say, this stuff gets around. On the MOA board you can see several BMW dealers posting, many in defense of BMW.

But the evidence adds up. I've been following it for ten years or so. I am also personal friends with two SF Bay Area BMW dealers and dealer mechanics who are full of interesting facts that I'm sure Margus would call
"Village Gossip" (how quaint!). Below, just a few recent comments from long time BMW owners who are well established members on MOA and other organizations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally Posted by knary
What's the gist of the MCN article? It is
that BMW is screwing over it's most loyal customers by trying to sweep this under the rug.

The techs know it's a legitimate issue. Anyone spending five minutes in this forum knows it's a legitimate issue. Anyone who has had it happen to them knows it's a legitimate issue. BMW corporate says "what problem?". Our federal government says "what problem?".

Nice analysis and technical drawings showing the design of the two paralever designs, showing which parts fail and how. A list of things to watch for to nip the problem in the bud before the final drive disintegrates. There's even a photo of a final drive on fire - the lube leaked out, the final drive got hot enough to ignite the lube - and poof - man makes fire via BMW final drive.

Lots of input into the article from Anton Lagraider and Paul Glaves - thanks guys for helping flesh out the article with your knowledge and experience.

I'm waiting for part II of Bill Shaw's expose - "Clutch Input Shaft/Clutch Hub Failures".
__________________
Seattle, WA
2002 R1150RT-P
1992 K75S sold
"Why do I ride a BMW? Because Porsche doesn't make motorcycles."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOT a first for BMW FD's;
BMW bikes have been loosing FD's for many many years now and the new FD is just the latest of the bunches of them going bad. Remember? My '01 KLT was one of the lot(s) and it lost TWO of them! BMW fixed them, but its a ruining a trip kind of failure, when it happens. I was running cross country when it happened and a truck ride home. Its NOT been a loss of oil kind of failure in these older ones. The newest FD is a departure from normal engineering, however and BMW has tried to do something and it seems to have BIT them in their butt a tad bit! The new "maintenance free", so called rear end is not the end of BMW's issues with FD's, it appears. The saga continues for them at BMW. We are subject to it all, as customers and I hope to live through it all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are literally hundreds of posts like this scattered all over BMW boards. Some more condeming some not.


Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

An interesting and informative thread where Margus uses facts and statistics (rather than opinion) and Mollydog uses opinion (rather than facts).

M/D was accused of passing on "Village gossip" and actually this can be seen where he says that he knows some dealers who tell him secret stuff. Comments like "how quaint" about another person's views don't advance his argument at all, unfortunately.

Like Mollydog, I have no special knowledge of BMWs, but there are plenty around, which suggests a degree of engineering success? The thousands who buy BMWs aren't fools.

However, I can't say the same of V-Stroms, simply because I hardly ever see any. It seems that riders have voted with their feet, and passed them by. The thousands who avoid V-Stroms aren't fools either.

I would have liked M/D to argue against BMWs using facts, not stories. That's a much more convincing way to make a case, for or against. The pics M/Dog shows above are simply an example of pictorial gossip, proving nothing.

I was initially impressed by the claims for the VStrom engine,(it seemed very good) until I read this thread. The price is certainly attractive. But is it built down to a price? I don't know.

But I believe M/D mistakenly meant well, and he tried his very best, unsuccessfully, to make his point; but surely it's better to avoid stories/hearsay?

If you use Margus' link and look up the manufacturer's recalls , you will see that several thousand BMW s have been recalled for manufacturing faults and not a single VStrom .
Unless the facts are wrong !

Living by the Alaska Highway , I see hundreds of bikes during the summer .The most popular bike is the KLR with very many VStroms and GS1150 and GS 1200 , not so many GS650 .

If you were to avoid a certain bike just because of an opinion formed by reading this thread , you would indeed be a fool .

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Regards various faults on various bikes:

The best I can suggest is to get involved in the popular bike specific forums. This is the best way to learn what is going on with a particular bike from owners. Follow some of the links I posted before.

Every time I point out a BMW failure Margus calls me a liar. Read the posts on the BMW sites and decide for yourself.
Now pick some other bikes. How do they match up?

Try BMWMOA site, and BMW RA. There are many other BMW boards as well, all staunchly pro BMW.

I've read the Vstrom boards since 2002 and can assure everyone that from this feedback and personal experience (60,000 miles 2 Vstroms) Vstroms have no endemic, repeating failures based on bad design. I can also assure everyone that the Vstrom was viewed with great suspicion by many new owners, given it's a whole new bike. So it had to be very good indeed to convince the skeptics. But after a few years it became clear the bike was basically very good.

Sure, there have been a few troubled Vstrom owners as there are with most any bike. But Margus's portrayal of "blown" clutches is total BS and he knows it.

The Clutch baskets on about 30% of '02 and '03 DL1000's got noisy. On the first Vstrom Yahoo List-serve we only had 2,700 members in 2003 and NOT ONE clutch basket ever left a rider on the side of the road. They were noisy and irritating, but the bike still rode fine and the clutch operated totally normally other than the sound and feel. I know, I had one and Suzuki replaced the basket .... free!

Suzuki took about 6 months to respond to this but by '04 the design was changed and anyone with a noisy clutch could have it fixed free. Many were
replaced ... free.... out of warranty. So in the end Suzuki did the right thing.

My Vstrom's have been the most reliable bikes I've owned. Period. I've owned about 45 bikes and tested many others for City Bike. Mostly Japanese bikes, starting in 1960. I've also owned Bultaco, Triumph, BSA, Norton, Husqvarna, Laverda and TWO BMW's ... and probably some I've forgotten.

Sure, guys complain about stuff on the Vstrom too but mostly the reports about long term reliability are very very good. Thousands and thousands of posts reflect this. Mostly what you hear are complaints about wind buffeting, tires, and what farkles to buy!

Search for Vstrom or Wee Strom .... and take your pick, lots of threads.
Beasts - ADVrider

or go to this Vstrom specific site.
V-Strom Forum - powered by Tex Arts

Post and ask about problems, breakdowns, blown clutches. The responses should shed some light on the truth here. There are some problems, but after 8 years of production mostly the record is Good!

Some BMW zealots are in denial and so are BMW corporate, but the truth is catching up to them. If anyone does a few simple searches the facts are all there ..... in spades.

The pics above are just me having a bit of fun. I could find pics of any bike on the ground, but since the GS guys are so brave and ride in such dumb places, it's hard to resist
(remember, in my local riding club we have at least 10 GS owners, although many have bailed on BMW. Some are buying the new F800GS, some have changed to Orange underpants, some even have bought Vstroms!


Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!