You would indeed.

So, the number of bikes you see in your neighbourhood, tells you about its reliability then? There are lots of areas, where the Vstrom is very popular, too. Mostly the 650-version. I dont think anyone "avoids" it because of reliability, because it simply has not been an issue with this bike.

With the R1200GS, general reliability has been an issue, and no matter how many they´ve sold, and how well they´ve taken care of their warranty claims, it´s still had an awful lot of reports about various problems, several of which will at the very least mean a trip-stopper. Reported problems with Vstroms have been small in nature compared to these.

I´ve nothing against BMW. In fact I like the 1200GS, its a great bike to ride. But you keep hearing this very similar story from several sources, the net, other motorists, the magazines, over several years, and I dont think its all just "village gossip" anymore. BMW built a machine, that is a bit too full of advanced (=complicated, relatively untested) technology to work well on a bike, thats supposed to be capable of going far away from their dealer network, still without a worry.

If you had a statistic about, say, 1000 pieces of GS1200´s sold, and the same number of Vstroms sold, and their respective number of warranty claims over the same period of time, I think you would get a very clear picture of this.

Is that really so hard to admit?

Still beating your old drum looking for isolated incidents or examples (that, in fact ARE "village gossips" if you try to prove someting in terms of statistics and overall picture). Or are you senile or just ignorant person? Please read all of my posting over again.

WOW! Look who's defensive now, with carefully selected long sentences to prove everything otherwise very wisely. Respect! Can't believe mr. BMW-basher himself (or should we call you now mr. Boss-BMW-basher/hater in HU? - That is, while supposed to be an unbiased motorcycle magazine writer at the same time?) gets rather touchy about V-Strom and suddenly gets so defensive if hears some bashing in return.

Proves the point - your Ein-Stonian maybe provoked it intensonally - just to show yourself from the mirror. Since there basically is no other way to stop your (rather schizophrenic) bashing with mis-quoting or just ignoring what others have to say. And I can easily contiue bashing V-Strom with different examples if I may? I kind of started to like bashing bikes I never owned myself, it's soo much easier to be in the basher-role. OR maybe I've just picked up some of your habits?

(If you still didn't get my point, then please read the previous posts all over again.)

Why isn't such a silly issue (as you say: 30% of the bikes suffering noise issue, that's 1/3 o the bikes!!!, the rest not) in the recall list if Suzuki replaced it for free? Should be in the recall list in my book at least.

You're maybe blessed in the US if Suzuki responded your problem "secretly" (not puting it into the recall list), but in this part of the World Suzuki does nothing with it's silly reliability problems, like I had with my electrics and I know many others suffered the same problem. Problems were simply unanswered - in the end, the big $$$ had to come from my wallet to repair the broken bike, completely replaced wires due to faulty and unlogical electrical design.

So have been my BMWs, and in fact more reliable than my Japanese bike have been to me. Period. I'm maybe an isolated example and I can't tell if BMW is more reliable or not (and I wouldn't publically spread village gossip about Japanese bikes being unrelaible compared to my BMWs), but they have proven to be more reliable to me.

And arguing based our personal experiences will go into "I have better than you" competition and means nothing in terms of overall picture.

Look around UKGSer.com or ADVrider.com GSpot or BMW MOA, so are most of reports on BMWs good and owners mostly praise their bikes.

But if someone has good experiences with BMW, it doesn't count for you, right? Good experiences only with Suzuki count for you to compile overall picture, and only bad examples on BMWs?


Those few simple searches reveal THOUSANDS of faults on Japanese bikes and there are loads of them since Japanese bikes are the most produced bikes in the World in fact. Just type different combinations of "Suzuki problem" for a start


Maybe because BMW riders have sense of enthusiasm, exitment and adventure? At least I very much enjoy riding my trusty GS on very technical terrain and test it's strenght and reliability, and so do many many others:


Suzukis, especially V-Stroms seem to fall over even on the level ground:




Centre of gravity too high to handle? Too much vunerable plastics to break? Not really an offroad capable bike?


Funny, why so many ex V-Strom owners buy your unreliable R1200GSes then? Look into ADVrider for proof in different threads. The GS is more capable bike?

Good roads, Margus

Pretty much sums up the whole thread for those who're not involved in the discussions.


Happy travels, Margus

Sure, with the right riders you can make almost any bike go anywhere, and do almost anything with it. Doesnt mean your Joe Average can do it (or would much more likely stay healthy doing with some other bike).

Neither the 1200GS or Vstrom 650/1000 are very offroad-capable, in fact quite the opposite, theyre heavy pigs, and only very experienced riders can manage them in conditions pictured. The Vstrom doesnt crash very well, at least it´ll break a lot of plastic, and I dont think a boxer-engine will get away lightly, either. Its even got the fuel injection parts exposed there on the backside of the cylinders.

Dont fully understand, how this relates to their technical reliability, though? I think both can be damaged in a way that they need to be taken somewhere by a pick-up quite easily.

That only holds water if you look at "like for like" location, usage and mlieage, too.
Taking that into account, I think any clear trend may not be so clear after all.

Problem is, as previously pointed out, that anecdotes are not proof.

People always bitch when things go wrong, but do not bother if things run as planned.

You will always find loads more "my new Suzuki/my new BMW is broken" threads than "my new Suzuki/my new BMW is running perfectly well, I just want to let everyone know its doing what I expected a new bike to do" threads.

Forums may highlight faults that arise more often than others, but give no indication of the ratio in relation to bikes that are running fine. Neither does it shed any light on chosen usage or mileage.

In the UK the average annual biking miles are about 3000/year if not less as biking becomes more of a luxury pastime than a purely means of transport (we are a dying breed!).
The most common bikes are sports bikes. Sports bikes are mostly Japanese. With that sort of mileage, usually over the summer sundays, are they likely to go drastically wrong over the first two years that warranty applies? Probably not. The most popular BMW in the range has been the GS for many years, IIRR. Typically, BMs do tend to see more miles and in all weathers.

So if we hypothesise that reliability is identical, you are still likely to see more warranty claims on the BM than the Japanese bikes in those first two years: mileage and usage.... etc. This is not supposed to be a water-tight scientific explanation, but it puts forum quotes and warranty figures a little more in perspective I think.

For the record, as previously stated, I like Japanese bikes as much as I do the BMs.

Although predominantly a Honda rider, my two all-time favourite bikes that I have personally owned and extensively ridden were a BM and a Suzuki (the V-strom engine in its original form: the TL1000s).

What I dislike is brand bashing without reliable back-up, especially when that bashing is even extended to owners of the brand and the country they live in.

What the heck does "who buys a bike" have to do with production quality?!?
And yet such comments have been made in an arguement allegedly about falling production standards!!

True or not, the "BMWs are crap" line has started to sound far too much like a personal vendetta than "10 years" of close scrutiny and analysis, IMO...

I must say, for that reason, I am far more interested i what the likes of you, Pecha, and some others ,who seem to have a more reasoned approach to the debate, have to say...

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

This is so funny, i clicked on this thread as i have the 650GS, clicked straight to the last page and its not about the bike at all, its a bitching competition... what happenned to the original thread subject lol...

This thread was pretty good for the first couple pages, nice, friendly exchange of opinions and experience. It was OK right up to Post #28 when
Margus came barging in with his very defensive posture and calling any non BMW zealots a liar.

So read the first couple pages ... some great comments that compares Japanese singles with BMW singles .... and quite respectful and civilized as well.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

"nice, friendly exchange of opinions", "quite respectful and civilized"?!?

I think it quite innappropriate for you, Mollydog, to level those sorts of criticisms considering your derogatory comments and jibes aimed at Margus' country and nationality (post number 55): something for which you have not had the decency to apologise.

Not to mention you pidgeon-holing anyone who has bought a BM as a rich wannabee with more money than sense:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...970#post201217

I think its bang out of order to have than sort of attitude toward people, let alone based on their choice of brand. What's next? Their nationality? oh sorry, you've already done that one.

Evidently, you feel this is perfectly acceptable behaviour....

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Personal insults aside (and I dont think they fit this forum at all) I must say that several posts by Mollydog have been very useful for me, and in fact his well-informed opinions some time ago played a part in convincing me, that I can do a big trip on a Vstrom.

And I did (or we, that is, 2-up with my missus), from Europe to Australia, over 30.000 kilometres, with no worries worth even mentioning. The choice of the right bike was a big factor in succeeding in all this, and I did need a bit of convincing, that we can go with fuel injection, and something thats not a "real" offroad-bike. The opinion of an experienced rider, who has done similar trips on a similar bike, was of great value.

With this I do not mean to say he would be the only one here who knows his stuff, though.

Ok, enough said! It's about time for a break for this thread, people are getting a little too hot-headed about it.

A little less "personal opinion" and a little more - "it worked for me - or not" as at the beginning would have been useful, but it seems to have deteriorated entirely too much.

so, it's closed.

__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.
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Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com