I appreciate your candid explanation.

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Dave

Cars and trucks seem to be built to a different standard. The numbers and value allow more work to be put in and it shows.

My automotive work was centred round Leyland, a component of DAF-Paccar group. Leyland made 10000 trucks a year, basically bigger and smaller versions of one type they designed and another type DAF in Holland worked on. DAF in Holland made ten times the number of vehicles and Paccar in the US used a lot of the same building block systems. The smallest parts were technically the same as on any truck in the world, some with 20 years of usage. We got a new brake system about every ten years and made adjustments maybe every three. People buying the truck really expected it to work, we had vehicles that had run with four drivers 23.5 hours a day, 365 days a year. The buyers didn't care less if the next years version had radial upsidedown whatevers. Our trips to the Alps for wear testing and Finland for cold performance work were justifiable and included in the costs.

BMW motorcycles make fewer units than Leyland, in four significantly distinct types. They cannot buy the same components as other bigger manufacturers (although they are trying) and combine component development costs because no one else makes one like it. The market demands year on year changes and is caught up on technical detail, but the majority of it is never really used. Most BMW owners want to be able to talk about the ice detection system which turns on the heated seat via the improved CAN V4.63 with integrated non-wireless linkages. Few BMW riders actually use it every day in winter for hours and hours. Much as they are a boutique brand and can charge more, it isn't massively more and they spent the money on weird castings for a flat twin motor and funny front end, not sending bikes out on test.

Nissan or Ford have the same development costs spread over multiples of ten more vehicles.

I would worry less about your car or truck, it is designed and tested for the 99th percentile user. I would buy your bikes from the biggest manufacturers or ones that gave themselves the easiest development tasks by running that heated seat off a switch, not via a decision point in the central CAN node that also has the authority to kill the ignition to avoid any risk of burning a lawyers ****. I never buy a bike that someone else hasn't tried to break first in the real world, which means the model wasn't launched this year. They could design a bike with both the features and reliability but the market would never accept the price.

Andy

So what you're saying really is that people like Kev (the OP) are doing BMWs testing for them in more rigorous conditions than you'd generally find in Europe and they also have to pay for replacement parts out of their own pocket when they go wrong.

Win-win for BMW but it does rely on us, the user, being daft about bikes, unlike the truck fleet operator who simply has to make a commercial decision.

Everyone talking about the more general theme has gone to the pub!
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ravel-on-70769

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Dave

See post number 49 in here for the status of CANbus technology as fitted to BMW motorcycles:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...enture-70391-4

Perhaps this thread should be in the BMW tech forum; it doesn't relate to "which bike" and because BMW is leading where other manufacturers will tend to follow.

Some of the earlier posts remind me of the last time I was inside a Citreon workshop (one of those smaller ones where you can talk directly with the mechanics); the more junior staff were cursing the electronics and the readouts on the diagnostics equipment while the "old hand" was bemoaning how he was going to break the bad news to the car owner who had absolutely no idea what lies under the bonnet.

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Dave

<Hi there!
on my bike the problem is the fuel indicator (AKA "fuel strip") in the tank.
Two years ago, while on the road, I started getting erratic readings about the amount of fuel in the tank. BMW blamed some additives in the fuel that may have short circuited the "strip", and replaced it for a new one at no charge. One year later, readings got erratic again. BMW guys said they would replace the strip again, as it was under warraty. Two days later they phoned to say they needed some more time cause they had changed the strip 3 times (2 were new and one from another bike) and none worked. A week later they still did not find out what was wrong. 10 days later they said it was my fault because I had too much "non original stuff" on the bike (one HID lamp, two PIIA halogens, and a set of Hella horns) causing the wiring to fail. As none of these accesories were connected directly to the wiring, but to the batt by means of relays I did not buy their "diagnosis", so I told them to disconect the fuses from these parts and to test the strip again.... AS EXPECTED IT DID NOT WORK!
A long weekend approached, As I had in mind to make a short trip on the bike, BMW returned it to me promising to continue the repair upon return. When I left the shop, the indicator was as dead as when I brought it in. The next day, after refueling it started doing some weird readings..... at the end of the day it was working propperly again. (??!!) 8 months have passed since and the readings from the strip are still quite accurate. BMW guys have no idea why it does work now.... and offered to take a look, but I didn´t let them! I know it will fail again, probably when I need it most..... but what else can I do?

there has been a problem with the film type sensors and it is a well known problem within BMW, in the UK at least. I would not believe your dealer in him saying its your fuel or your 'non original stuff' unless it is directly connected to the fuel sensor wiring it should not cause a problem. It is a far overengineered design with one heater wire and one reading wire, the heating wire warms up and the reading wire changes resistance depending on how much fuel is in the tank. BMW has since updated the part but there was a time, probably when you went in for your second sensor, when the parts were coming from the factory faulty, we in the uk were told to test the parts before we fitted them with a multimeter to check whether they are part of the faulty batch. The new sensors seem much more reliable now. We have had a few customers come back for 5 or 6 sensors where we would fit new ones and they would fail a few months later. When we fit a new sensor we always tell the customer to go and fill their tanks as this fully teaches in the new sensor and the new sensors take a small roadtest before they register so if the guy that replaced your sensor didnt go out on it then it might be why you erratic readings when you picked it up.
BMW are slowly getting rid of the film type sensor for the more reliable lever type. They have removed the sensor completely from the r1200r model so it doesnt actually have a fuel sensor on that model also all the new models that will come out in the future will be fited with float lever sensors.

These sorts of things are annoying, especially on an a costly bike, but they occur from time to time on all makes and at least it doesn't stop you going.

It sounds as if BMW are doing something about this particular problem, however, it doe make you wonder how many other parts are equally overly complicated. Not directly related but one of my main irritations with the building industry suppliers is that too many simple products are designed by people sitting in front of drawing boards who don't have a single days hands on experience on site. As a result I can waste 20 mins trying to make a simple plastic clip do the job it's meant to do.

Hi Tony,
I agree with you, but when (t least in my country) you go to BMW with this problem, the guys look at you as if you were mad, cause (they say) THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT! Only after putting them under pressure they change their attitude and accept considering the complaint. On the other hand, I cant get why they had to go for SUCH a weird system. I read about how this system works.... and it cant be more complicated: the gauge under the front fender reads the air temperature. Based on this info, the sensor strip is heated some degrees up, A second sensor on the same strip then measures the impedance of the fuel. this value is sent back to the computer, which then calculates the amount of fuel based on a given impedance, at a certain temperature, and a certain fuel density. There are much simpler ways (perhaps too simple for a BMA engineer!) like putting an electronic weight cell inside the tank. This plus the air temp reading (the warmer the fuel, the lighter it is) can give very precise readings with no moving parts nor rocket science technology....

I agree with you about the trend of making things unnecessarily complicated. On the other hand, 2013 models of 1200 (GS and R) still have the fuel strip in their tanks, reason for which I did not get a new bike this year, as planned!

Considering the 1200 GS is supposed to be a bike for on - off road travelling (yes, most have never been on a dirt road), certain things could have been made on a more simple way; like the fuel indicator... BMW has removed the old (and very useful) tap at the bottom of the tank: in most models, if your indicator doesen´t work propperly or the yellow reserve light is burned, there is no second chance... the tank is empty for good As a counterpart, the "obsolete" technology , gave you some spare km by just turning the tap to "reserve"

The fuel reading is only taken initially when you first start the bike up, factors like starting your bike on the sidestand could give a miss reading. Then for the most part the engine control unit works out how much fuel it is using and that is what your fuel gauge actually works on, not a reading from the tank.

2013 R1200 GS Adventures and RT's still have the film strip installed.
2013 R1200 GS uses a float type lever sensore
10/2012 onwards R1200 R no longer come with any fuel level sensor

The fuel strip sensor is not for the users convienience. Different tanks on different models would need different lever arms. BMW pay more as the tooling and set up cost for each lever is split over fewer parts, they have more parts to administer and their stock levels are higher. The temperature sensor is used by multiple other systems, so the cost is split down over every single vehicle. If one strip can go in every single tank and they only change a line of software for each variant it is again cheaper to make.

The whole design ethos of CAN is one piece of hardware per function regardless of where it physically sits, variants by software and as little copper between them as possible. A manufacturing benefit with a few weight savings and dealer service considerations thrown in.

Andy

Isn't the overall design philosophy dexcribed here to eliminate use of mechanical fuel "senders" and use electronic based systems instead, with no moving parts?

I well remember that the fuel sender for my Yamaha XJ900 Diversion was notorious for failing. On the other hand, the shaft drive was reputed to be very reliable.

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Dave

I can only speak from my own personal experience. I would not buy another BMW. I've had four, three new and one used. I'll make it short(ish) as the more I think about them the more my blood boils! I had an F650GS which I bought new in 2004. The bike would cut out on the over run and would take an age to start. It cut out in London traffic on roundabouts and on the last occasion, whilst filtering between lanes 2 and 3 of the M4 in rush hour traffic. On that occasion I was nearly killed. The dealer had the bike in their possession more than I had it in mine. As the bike was new I wrote to the dealer and BMW UK and told them that I was rejecting the bike as dangerous. I was offered a new bike or my money back. I took the money. A few bikes later I bought a second hand R100GS for an RTW. I spent a fortune having the subframe strengthened and other mods for the trip. In Northern Italy the gear lever return spring broke and final drive began leaking. The bike had covered 18,000 miles. The next BMW was an R1150RT which I bought new. The clocks steamed up in heavy rain and there was a fault with ABS light which randomly illuminated. PX'D this for a new 1200GS. Ignition faults, final drive leaks and failure of the servo brakes. Corrosion on the alternator cover, engine casings, frame and wheels after 6000 miles and five months. My NTV650 was half the cost of the 1200GS and completed in excess of 100,000 miles without fault. My Africa Twin (which I've owned for ten years concurrently with other bikes) completed 157,000 miles without any major issues.

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\"Bon Chance\"

"I am sorry sir, but for riding off asphalt on a BMW you are required to have the obligatory TKC80 tyres on your bike. Unfortunately, as you had the Anakees at the time of the incident, your warranty doesn't cover this.

But the good news is that we can get you a new swingarm, drive shaft and tension strut in 4 weeks for £2500 - plus labour of course, which is £100/hour plus VAT. We can check out the final drive, but if its scratched you can add another £900 to the bill.

Shall we book it in?"

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