Sure....any point of view is OK...but if your facts are wrong and your history or a bit off..May I point that out. Is that Ok? (by the way, I'm on drugs now)

Much of your post REPEATS what I've already said in earlier posts back in this thread. Check it out.

Thats funny, I didn't ever see Jap cars in the 60's or early 70's when I was in the UK. Far as I know, the Japs didn't do much at all with there cars there, even today you don't see many. Any Brit-O-Car-Files care to chime in?

Fact is, early Jap cars were stellar. Datsuns (Nissan), Toyota, Honda, simply
fantastic compared to the American (or any other car) cars of the time. I don't believe the UK had much experience with these cars back then....in the US we did, and millions of happy buyers made Nissan, Toyota and Honda what they are today. So I call BS on your claim, you are ignorant of the facts and I have about 20 million Americans who owned these early versions to back me up. Just because you bought some clapped out, used up, high mileage POS does not mean they were all that way. In the Us, they quickly went to the top in reliability. Hence there success today.

Yes, the finish sometimes aged, more so than a nice Bonnie, but the inards lasted. And if we want to talk about aging fast....lets look at Triumph top ends. Remember, there were about 5 or 6 times as many Triuimphs sold here than were in the UK. Fact. So we dumb ass Americans know something about Triumph of the 60's and 70's as well. This was the case for about 10 or 15 years. Logical, we have a much larger population, and Triumph's main focus was here, same with the Japanese companies. The Japanese all set up headquarters in my home town, Los Angeles.

The Z1? Man, they made plenty of useful bikes long before that mate. That was 1973! Same time the CB750 came along (a year earlier if I recall?)
I had plenty of decent handling Jap bikes in the 60's. CB160, CB250 Scrambler,
Suzuki X-6 Huslter, and more.

Don't agree about the electrics. I had Brit bikes from years: 1960 (Tiger Cub), '65 (Bonneville), '67 (Dayona 500), '70 (Rickman Metisse) '73 (TR-6) and my last...just sold a few years ago....'79 Bonneville Special. The Special was good. Only a few problems. Every other one caused problems, from Zenor diodes to blown bulbs, to broken/corroded wires...the lot. A great learning experience for me.

The only problem with several Jap bikes I had was a couple dead batteries and bad capacitor. Ride in rain all day and night. They just kept going.

You thought the CB125 Benely looked Chintzy? What about the CB400F in-line four? (I owned one)

I agree the early pressed metal frames and weird forks were crap. And as I said TWICE earlier.....the Brit bikes always out handled early Japanese bikes.
So, on those two issues we agree. I raced BOTH, so I have some
insight into this and its why I ended up on Bultacos and Hodakas. But my street bike? No question: HONDA. But soon the Japanese came on strong....by the end of the 70's they were dominant in every catagory of bike except cruisers.

You made a comment about British metalurgy...should I quote it back?

You'll never get me to say anything good about HD....but if you check racing history in the US, in certain types of racing, you see HD dominates. I'm talking about flat track which during the years in question was the most important motorcycle racing in the US.

Flat Track is where a few minor racing celebraties you may have heard of began....Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Randy Mamola, John Kocinski and a bunch more American Flat trackers cum GP heroes...including Nicky Hayden....who rode....an HD! (30 years later of course) Remember Mert Lawill? (my neighbor) from On Any Sunday? Mert rode HD.

So HD won quite a bit here and did pretty well at Daytona as well. But to the guys I hung around and grew up with the most important racing was GP and the Island...Kenny was a Rebel...and rode a Yamaha, even then.

Your right, I was just laying out a back ground of the scene leading up to the failures of these companies. I've read about the poor quality due to worker dissatisfaction. All true I'm sure. Shame.

Sorry about the mining reference...no offence meant. I am a 25 year union member...one of just a few now in the USA thanks to Bush and his ilk. But the point was to illustrate the sad state of Brit industry then. (now at least you've got Triumph and Formula One, Indy Car, CART and more. About 75% of Americans have no idea that both Indy Car and CART use chassis and motors (mostly) built and designed in the UK.

I disagree.
If you read some of the books by the experts, they contend the big boys at the top knew perfectly well what was coming and let it happen...taking govt. bail outs and subsidies all the way till the end. No matter....my main point is that the Brit industry was in decline and finally went away. The details of exactly how it happened, in this case, are not that important.

Hey, a good friend had the very last Meriden Triumph ...not sure what it was called...it was black, a 1981 manufacture (or maybe '80) and had ....now get this...Bing carbs!!! It was brand new...good clean castings on the motor, nice wheels, disc brakes and a very different look to the seat/tank. Anyone know more about this bike? I've never seen another....and to think.....I could have bought it...cheap!

This is kinda a wash...both sides won. Some guy named Mike Hailwood did pretty good on Hondas at Daytona, and Dick Mann eventually switched to Honda too, IIRC. Both sides won stuff....but by the mid 70's the Brits were about done. And how were the Brits doing in F-1 (motorGP) by the mid 70's. In fact, what was the factory team to compete in F-1? and when? To me, F-1 MotoGP is what counts. Daytona, American road racing, all minor players at that time.

Everyone knows the Brits build the best handling chassis in the world (IMO) and are still damn good today.
Yes, with a hotter motor, could have gone far. But who in motorcycle racing is winning on a British made chassis?

I got a bit different slant on the history from Mike (Michelle Duff) who I met a couple years ago to review her book. And don't forget Suzuki, they were in there too, big time. Check your results. Yam
never used Brit chassis, nor did Suzuki. Evil handling piece of Crap? The Jap bikes just finished more...that's all. Especially the four strokes. Remember the old racer adage: First, you have to finish. Duff raced Arter Matchless/Norton for years before going to Yam. Read her book. (he is a she!! and charming and still fast!)

Cars were in there for historical perspective on those years...and a comment on British motor industry in general, and relevant to making a point.
Back to you mate.

The Harrier is great...I've seen it in action! Not sure we still use it....I think we have our own? You are totally correct about the yanks destroying the Brit aircraft industry. Boeing/CIA/DIA/NSA ??? Who knows, but the whole history has all the ear marks of their work. Remember how new Brit planes kept crashing? A very nasty business.

Read back a few posts to see where I explain how the Japanese got started in racing and their expertise in reverse engineering...not an original design thought in their heads....but they are just SO anal about quality and about
refinement. This is where the superiority lies.

True about early 400-4 cam chains....many made noise and ran poorly but few
exploded. My 400-4 required a new one and frequent adjustment. That was in 1975....When Bonnevilles and BSA's were losing bearings, bending valves and leaking like a seive....just to keep comparisons equal.

I had a '63 step through, 3-speed girls model, no clutch...in 1963. I guess I was a little more self confident than to worry what my "mates" thought. Since I could out ride most of them....they never said a word.

Took those 50's on surf trips to Baja with our older brothers. I was too young to drive. I rode that Honda from Ensenada all the way to San Felipe on the Gulf and back. Then down the coast for miles and miles looking for surf spots. Through the desert too, on the beach and sometimes in the water (low tide).

Fly off the handle? Are you quite serious chap? You need to grow some thicker skin Dodgey. I didn't think I was flyng off the handle....just a little back and forth...very friendly, spirited discussion.
Sorry to see you get so defensive.

Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

What year is your TT? Just curious.

If you have owned a few 600 or 650 kick start bikes, or some old
Brit bike singles like the 441 Victor or Matchless 500, then you should have no problem.

Mostly there is a routine to follow and once you learn it its' not too bad. Never kick without wearing boots. Mostly, the only time they are hard to start is when they have gone over. If the bike falls...pick it up quickly (if you can).
Turn off fuel right away. Wait. Be patient.

Modern dirt bikes have "Hot Start" circuits. If your TT is a 2001 or newer maybe it has this feature? Helps with starting when the bike is flooded from falling over.

For me, I like to do this routine with a fallen bike:

1. Turn off fuel
2. pick up ASAP
3. Rest
4. Throttle wide open (HOLD wide open)
5. Choke OFF
6. Compression release pulled IN
7. Kick 20 times gently, now release throttle.
8. Wait 30 secs.
9. Start normally, fuel on, no choke, NO throttle when kicking.

Cold starting should not be a problem if valves are adjusted, ignition is strong,
and carb is correctly set up. Fuel on, kick few times to prime using compression release, now, Choke on full, raise idle up one or two turns, kick firmly, do not twist throttle as you kick.

Good luck.
Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Hey all...

I started this thread as a definitive bike thread. Lets please not dilute it will arguments and essays about old cars.




Luv ya all !!

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Patrick ,once again you are making wild assumptions about what kind of vehicles I bought, how could you possibly know ? I didn't buy miled out pieces of crap, so get your facts right before you pass judgement .
My Datsun needed new wheel bearings every 3 months and the brake pads used to catch fire , reliable ? My brother sold his Datsun pick up at two years old because it was rusted out and wouldn't start in the rain .Oh but wait Patrick says there weren't Jap cars in Britain ! - So call me a liar !
Furthermore ,having driven in the UK for the period in question I know much better than you could ever possibly do, what kind of vehicles were extant at the time , so bullshit to you buddy .

Fact is this all sprang from one comment I made about Japanese metallurgy being substandard to British , which I still believe to be true for the period we were discussing which was post ww2 to the early seventies .

Please quote my words back to me and lets see where I mentioned the US !

I saw a great number of the racers you mentioned ,Kenny Roberts , Wayne Rainey , Kevin Schwantz , most of the British stars of the day ,John "Mooneyes" Cooper ,our local hero, beat Agostini in the Race of the Year so I know a bit about what bikes won what .
Didn't see many arses on plates .
The best racer I ever saw was Kenny Roberts ,racing in the snow!, at Mallory Park in the Transatlantic Trophy ,clearly a biking legend .
Ever heard of Colin Seeley ? Built frames for Yamaha engines , Harris ? -- no I don't suppose you have .
Mike Hailwood didn't win at Daytona on a Honda it was an MV , I know he raced the works Tri/BSA there but Dick Mann DID win on Honda and then switched to BSA to win again , do try to get things right Patrick old fellow .
I said the Honda that Mike Hailwood raced was evil handling ,not all Jap bikes , please try to read carefully what I wrote .

Sorry mate but the Benly was an awful looker and the 400 was known as a girl's bike .My opinion only- but if you liked them ,well that's OK .
CB 750s appeared in 69 , not 72 .

Now about BSA/Triumphs ,do you mean Norton Villiers Triumph or the Triumph Cooperative ?
NVT in the end was purely about asset stripping , but Triumph Coop was doomed because ,as I said, they could not see the writing on the wall . I don't have to read books about it , I followed it very closely at the time .

Brit planes crashing ? Yep possibly but which ones ? Shall we talk about Starfighters buddy ?

HD had to connive with the AMA so that they could race 750s against Brit 500s for many years . So HDs don't really impress me much although they did eventually get a good 750 built .Didn't they also get Kenny Roberts TZ 700 banned so that he had to go back to the Shell Thuett XS750 . [I've got one of his cams in my bike ]


Shall we go on ?

Hey Patrick I've got a really thick skin but a low tolerance for being called a bullshitter .
You covered every subject from planes ,cars ,coal , unions ,electrics , racing [ F1 and bikes ] even managed to invent things I didn't say .Wow !

Relax buddy .

So my suggestion is for you to fly over to France and stay at oldbmw's B&B , see if you can borrow his pipe and slippers ,relax a little ,have a cup of Ovaltine , take your medication and chill out .But be careful or Mrs oldbeemer might whack you with a slipper for being impertinent .

Sorry Ted -- off topic . How's your job/love life /trip coming along ?
Well OK ,I'm not really sorry .

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Dodger and Mollydog,
I tend toward endorsing Ted's plea; these long posts are getting very confusing and a lot of people are too young to know what you are talking about!

I'm going back to the October 07 edition of "The Classic Motorcycle" now.

Regards,

__________________
Dave

Well ,don't believe everything you read in that mag .

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

According to Honda, my CRF450X weighs 116kg so it certainly fits the criterion of being lightweight. Rightly or wrongly, I am taken by the idea of riding it back to the UK via Africa. If anyone can offer advice or opinions on this, I've started a CRF450X thread here.

Cheers, Stephan

No problem Dodger: I don't believe everything I read in any magazine, and I don't bother to read newspapers too often nowadays for much the same reason.
However, this month, there are a couple of things in the mag that I have some knowledge about and I can relate to them OK.
I don't usually read it anyway, but my mate may get a classic while I might, just might, take a look at a new RE.

Cheers,

__________________
Dave

You well may have to buy new, I have been scanning the ads for teh last two years and second hand Lean burn RE's are as scarce as Rocking horse manure, but do get the lean burn one unles period detail is really required.
Was a time when second hand RE's were in great abundance.. Usually now they only come up for sale when the owner has died.

sorry I made amess of my reply to mollydog, I tried interspersing my responses, but the system insisted on using the same font for everything.


I have just this minute checked Haywards, teh UK main Enfield dealers, these are s/h bikes in stock traded in for Enfields.

2005 Suzuki V Strom

650cc, blue, 22800m, tax, MOT
£3,295

2006 Yamaha Fazer FZ6

Black, 975miles only, top box, panniers
£3,995

2003 Suzuki GSX1000R

1000cc, blue/white, 4200m, tax/MOT
SOLD

2001 Harley Davidson FXDX Dyna Super Glide Sport

1450cc, black, tax, MOT
£6,495

2001 BMW K1200 RS

1200cc, yellow/black, 50200m, tax, MOT
£3,995

1999 Yamaha Fazer

600cc, red, tax, MOT
£1,750

1999 Honda CBR600

600cc, red, 8500m, tax, MOT, offered on behalf of private owner
£2,350

Happy hunting.

An interesting list OldBMW: there seems to be some very low mileage bikes traded for an RE (or the dealer has been buying in bikes from elsewhere to keep up his stock? ).

It's early days for looking/consideration but I might get lucky and someone pops their clogs, thereby laying on a bargain of the year!

Despite all the talking and thinking and reading and looking at bikes I still end up buying a bike on instinct.

It may be of interest that in the classic mag is an ad for Hitchcocks - they do a conversion kit for the RE to give it a trials "makeover"; all for the princely sum of nearly £1000, excluding VAT.

Anyway, what is the deal with the lean burn engine? i.e. tell me more please.

Regards,

__________________
Dave

Hitchcocks have a great range of spare parts and upgrades, if you get an Enfield, open an account with them. (including teh rigt/left shift conversion kit for £130 )

despite the very old information that keeps getting put out here Enfield has since 1992 been making steady progress.
First they installed an electric start.. They did the job properly and not just kludge one onto the existing engine casing. they made moulds for a new crankcase. At that same time they beefed up the crakcase and the entire bottom end. So an electric start Enfield has a stronger bottom end than a non electric.
They then got Cranfield university to design a new five speed gearbox. Note the bike has separate engine, gearbox and primary drive casings which make repairs simpler. This gearbox is extensively used by people making diesel bikes and I have never heard of a failure of this box. A big plus to me is it can easily be changed from Right to left hand shift ( as can the whole bike) and the gearbox is enjoyable to use.
Then upcoming EPA and euro regs meant that the old 1949 engine (despite the new crankcase assembly) would not be able to comply after 2006 so in 2002 they got AVL systems of Austria to design a new engine for them that would meet all epa requirements ( including India which are the toughest)
It had to look retro, and physically fit in the existing bikes.
The engine they built is much better than the old engine and is designed to run reliably and continuously at 44 hp. Considering they get delivered with 25-30 something hp (depending on model) it just has to be reliable. The only point to watch is it now takes 6000 miles or more before the nicasil barrel has really bedded down and before you start getting maximum performance. ( same as BMW, not surprising as the barrels and cranks are made in teh same factory in India) When ridden quietly ( running in) many have reported 100mpg or more. The factory cites 80mpg for normal usage. The 14.5 litre tank can be set aside and an 18 or 20 litre one installed for less than £200 giving a very useful range. The big thing with these bikes is they are very cheap to maintain, like their predecessors.
There are a number of UK companies now importing refurbished pre 1970 bikes for teh UK market, the attraction is No Road tax for old bikes. many of which have been fitted with a new diesel engine (whole package about £2500) giving 150-200 mpg, very cheap biking and should you run short of fuel a litre or so of fresh cooking oil will work quite happily. From this you can see many Enfields are still in service after 40 years working in India.

I had an 350 Enfield in the early 60's which I used for offroad riding. Their light weight and very tractable engine will allow you to go anywhere not just off tarmac, but completely off any kind of road. The lean burn bikes will cope with motorways but that is not their forte. They are happier on lesser roads..In effect they are completely opposite to my BMW, that is only happy on motorways and is a pig everywhere else. basically the Enfield is better on motorways then the BMW is off motorways. (if that makes sense)

Thanks for that very informative reply OldBMW. Food for thought there!

Could the RE be the definitive bike of this thread?

For anyone who is following this RE discussion, this is the Hitchcocks mentioned:-
Hitchcocks Motorcycles -- Royal Enfield and Amal Parts and Kits

I've looked at the UK Importers webpages as well; all very interesting about what they bring into the UK.

ps I had not realised that Beemer are getting parts from India (did I read that right??) - no reason why not, India is a rising world trade power according to the TV pundits.

Cheers,

__________________
Dave

India has one of the biggest and most modern foundries in the world. Specialising in high quality components for BMW, Mercedes, and many others.

India and China are both growing economies. But, they are growing differently.
China's growth is largely Communist centrally organised building huge modern factories equipped with modern tools to produce product that they can sell for foreign currency using cheap labour as their 'edge'. esssentially it is value adding to their sales of raw materials and not subject to normal rules of accountancy in trade. IE it is the Government looking for foreign currency.

India being the worlds largest democracy has growth by private entrepaneurs large and small looking to make money. They have grasped the fact that the lucrative western market will pay for quality product, and are rising to the challenge. It is a learning experience for some still. However India has a much more divergent range of product available wherever they can turn local skills into a marketable product they try to improve the product to meet western standards because of increased profits. This accounts for the domestic Indian Enfields developement being static from 1955 until Eicher bought them in about 1992.
From then the bike has steadily been improved to suit western markets, whilst retaining the old model for domestic sales although both are available in India, and some other markets (eg Nepal).

May I just add that although Enfields are charming bikes, they are unreliable , agricultural bags of shit.

We're going to start franchising them after selling a few used ones. They are cheap but after putting a few through our workshop, i wouldnt trust one for a trip to the pub, let alone around the world..

Sorry !!

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

No sense of adventure perhaps?

Anyway, thanks for that contribution to the discussion; as ever on the HUBB, there are a few others who would disagree and who have a higher opinion of the RE:-

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...=Royal+Enfield

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tst...nfieldtravels/

Probably more, but I am still reading about such things.

ps The Kawasaki KLE is cheaper as far as I can see from research to date.

__________________
Dave