Well I ran maybe 20 of them far and wide before synth oil ever came along....or until I wasn't too cheap to buy it.

Poor mechanical designs? That's funny pops. Your pipe and slippers are ready deary...have some warm milk and off to bed now..

I think you're looking into the past with Rose Colored glasses. Brit bikes were great if you knew how to keep them running. Nowadays, many have fully modern restorations....modern heads, cams, valves, pistons, barrels. Very nice. Anyone ever heard of Kenny Drear? Amazing stuff.

If I wanted an old Triumph...I'd buy a new Bonneville....close enough for Rock&Roll. NOTE: Unit construction!! NOT pre-unit.

PS I have a friend who rides a clapped out TDM 850 Yamaha...parallel twin,
5 valve motor. Around since '92. Imported to US for only two years. He has
a '92. He runs cheap Chevron Delo, changes it every 10,000 miles. The bikes
is beat up...but that motor is just like new. 55,000 miles....no problems other than crash damage and some rust from the thing living outside since new.

Most Jap bikes would run fine on French Fry oil.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

I'll just add my £0.02-worth on the now completely off-topic debate:

I've generally had mainland European bikes - Montesa, Ossa, Bultaco (for trials) and more lately KTM (for travel). But I've always looked enviously at the Japanese models (particularly those of the 80s - Tenere, TYs, TLs, various XLs and oher XTs). Reason: tales of rock-solid reliability, 'bullet-proof' motors and huge mileages.

My only experience of owning a old British bike put me off them for life (mainly becuase of electrics and the number of tools required even to do basic maintenance). That said the machine was around 40 years old and virtually in standard trim. I also have friends who ride old British machines which, generally after they've been rebuilt using modern parts, seem to be reliable.

Anyway, back to my original question: learned opinions on the WR250R and Scorpa T-Ride as credible travelling machines please?

Thanks.

Go back to the first post in the thread. Talking details about the WR250 is just as "Off Topic" as talking about old Brit bikes and metalurgy really. No big deal.

I've never heard of the Scorpa T- Ride. What is it? Who makes it? History of it?

As for the WR250R....the model we get here in the US would not, to me, be the ideal long distance machine. Both the YZ450F/YZ250 and WR450F/WR250F as sold in the US are all off road, non street legal bikes.

They are SUPER light weight....like 106 kgs. for the WR250, 112 for the WR450. (claimed dry weight) The YZ kick start motocrosser are about 4 kgs. lighter still. (no battery or starter motor)

The weights of the Yamaha's compares very favorably with what Honda are doing with their CRF250X/CRF45X, which are also sold as Off Road only bikes
in the US and also have electric starting. The Yams and Hondas are probably within a kg. of one another.

Suzuki's bikes too are featherweights and now have Fuel injection for 2008.
But Suzuki, at this point, does not have an Off road version, only a moto crosser. But that will change.

Kawi has only a KLX450 off road version...still not street legal in the US, but
a detuned version of the motocross race bike with electric start and lights.

KTM make two street legal dirt bikes....the 450 and 530. Because they are a small manufacturer, are not required to make the bikes totally green, like, say,
Suzuki's DRZ400S, which has many many changes from the Off road E model.

I've heard of a street version of the WR250, made for Japan. Maybe this is the bike that is reffered to in this thread? I've heard it's TOTALLY different to the YZ/WR bikes. Is this bike being imported to the UK?

This might be a good distance bike if you can find a good seat and add luggage?

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

According to Honda, my CRF450X weighs 116kg so it certainly fits the criterion of being lightweight. Rightly or wrongly, I am taken by the idea of riding it back to the UK via Africa. If anyone can offer advice or opinions on this, I've started a CRF450X thread here.

Cheers, Stephan

Hi Ian,
Can you get a test ride on either of these bikes? Neither is very well known, so this might be a way of making headway in your thoughts.

It is not clear here why you are so keen on either of these two; I guess it is the Yam engine?!

Without asking you to write a book, can you explain a bit.

You did get me looking at a few more webpages, such as:-
> > > > Sherco Motorcycles Official Website < < < < (there are dry sump engine designs here as well!)
have you considered this manufacturer, or gas gas or...........whatever.

One, obvious, comment; any race based engine will require more maintenance, mile for mile, than a dual sport design and it will likely (almost certainly) be more frantic to ride. Therefore, take the R route rather than the F model?!!

As for off topic; this thread could run for ever - it started back at the beginning of this year and new models are on the way now for 08, as discussed elsewhere. Therefore, the thread has an indeterminate lifespan.

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Dave

Dodger,
I love it! Like me, you will remember when "Nissin" was "Datsun" (what kind of name is that for a car?) & Vauxhalls (Viva!!!) used to be rusting as soon as they were made (probably rusting while they were put together).

__________________
Dave

Hi Dave , I had Datsuns [ brake pads used to catch fire ] and a Viva and a similar Bedford van all of them were rubbish but the Bedford was useful as it carried my bikes to college !

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Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

So if all these new bikes are so good, why dont I want one ?

It should be obvious that there is no definitive bike for RTW travel.

This is simply a thread for stating our own prejudices and preferences for the bike we ride (or hope to ride) rather than any sort of "definitive" conclusion.

My suggestions:
Stop talking about it - just do it!
Whine about it later, to someone who cares.

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quastdog
Chiang Mai, Thailand

I think that was made pretty clear in the first page or so of this thread....you read it ...right?

Master of the obvious!

Oh my, no need to get snippy!
This thread kind of went off in a bunch of different directions. Kind of a fun thread I thought and no one seemed to mind. With such a broad subject, that was bound to happen. If you have something to contribute, then have at it.
If you don't care, then why post at all?

Patrick

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Ye Gods Patrick take a freakin' pill or something .
Can't anybody on this forum have a point of view other than yours ?

Technology :
I was around in the seventies in the UK and saw those rusting heaps of Japanese junk called cars ,even owned a couple too .Also I rode the bikes as well and when they were new they were great but they got old very fast .
The Japanese electrics a few years down the road were just as troublesome as Lucas . The welding was crap ,they used pressed steel sections that rusted instead of tubing and mostly the handling was awful .The only bike that impressed me at the time was the Kawasaki Z1 because at last the Japs had designed a bike that didn't look chintsy .

Invention:
"You may believe the Brits were the equal of the US in this area...but history sort of proves otherwise."-- I never suggested this Patrick- you did - wanna compare HDs of the time with Brit bikes ?

History:
Industry in the seventies in the UK was in a mess , Triumph workers used to leave little insulting messages in the engine cases for American owners to find.
I haven't tried to defend Brit industry , read what I wrote !
You mention Coal ,both sides of my family were miners , you mention Unions ,I lived in a coal mining area during the days of the 3 day working week and later the miner's strike ,do you want to tell me something about those days that I don't already know ?
What's your point anyway ?
Your view about Triumph is wrong ,they soldiered on until they went bankrupt ,sadly never, ever able to read the writing on the wall .
If only John Bloor had been chairman of BSA/Triumph in those days ; what would be the state of the Brit bike industry now ?

Racing:
British bikes came over to Daytona and won in the seventies and regularly beat Japanese and Italian bikes in International races , the Rob North framed Triumphs and BSA s are legendary .
Peter Williams' racing engineering on the Norton was superb and he beat 4 cylinder Jap bikes on a regular basis ,he experimented with monocoque and trellis frames many years before the Japs , if he had had a modern engine and a decent budget ,what could he have achieved? [ maybe this should be in technology ]
The Honda racers that raced in the Isle of Man were purpose built racers and fast but evil handling pieces of crap that only Mike Hailwood could tame .Yamaha were successful with their two strokes and dominated the smaller classes but in the early years successful racers used British frames . The only guy that could beat Peter Williams' Arter Matchless on the Island was Agostini on the 500 MV and that was well into the seventies .

Cars??
I never mentioned cars Patrick , I thought this was about bikes , but by denigrating British cars are you suggesting that Jap cars of the era were good , how many world rallies did Ford of Britain win -- not a bad record I fear ? .

Planes ???
Didn't mention planes either , but Brit technology can't be all bad or do you guys use the Harrier for shopping trips ? The Yanks used political pressure to destroy many worthy Brit projects .

Points of view of mine :
I lived in the UK during this period and witnessed the Japanese dominance of the bike industry ,it was as much due to the British ineptitude rather than overall Japanese superiority, after the collapse of the British bike industry there was nothing else to buy .The Japanese were great imitators and copied engineering concepts that originated in the West .By and large Japanese engines were reliable ,apart from Honda 4s that had a cam chain trouble and Kawa triples that seized ,and Suzuki triples that grenaded [ the 500 twin was good though ] - oh and wasn't there cam problems with early Honda V4s. So not perfect .

I borrowed a Honda 50 once , I thought that it was a piece of crap and not a thing I would ever want my mates to see me riding . The Honda cub may be the world's most successful bike but it's little more than a moped to me .


Please feel free to disagree and fly off the handle .

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Japanese tyres in those days were rubbish too !
[ Obviously a lack of rubber technology ]



Younger readers , ie less than 45 may want to skip this thread .
Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible .

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Sure....any point of view is OK...but if your facts are wrong and your history or a bit off..May I point that out. Is that Ok? (by the way, I'm on drugs now)

Much of your post REPEATS what I've already said in earlier posts back in this thread. Check it out.

Thats funny, I didn't ever see Jap cars in the 60's or early 70's when I was in the UK. Far as I know, the Japs didn't do much at all with there cars there, even today you don't see many. Any Brit-O-Car-Files care to chime in?

Fact is, early Jap cars were stellar. Datsuns (Nissan), Toyota, Honda, simply
fantastic compared to the American (or any other car) cars of the time. I don't believe the UK had much experience with these cars back then....in the US we did, and millions of happy buyers made Nissan, Toyota and Honda what they are today. So I call BS on your claim, you are ignorant of the facts and I have about 20 million Americans who owned these early versions to back me up. Just because you bought some clapped out, used up, high mileage POS does not mean they were all that way. In the Us, they quickly went to the top in reliability. Hence there success today.

Yes, the finish sometimes aged, more so than a nice Bonnie, but the inards lasted. And if we want to talk about aging fast....lets look at Triumph top ends. Remember, there were about 5 or 6 times as many Triuimphs sold here than were in the UK. Fact. So we dumb ass Americans know something about Triumph of the 60's and 70's as well. This was the case for about 10 or 15 years. Logical, we have a much larger population, and Triumph's main focus was here, same with the Japanese companies. The Japanese all set up headquarters in my home town, Los Angeles.

The Z1? Man, they made plenty of useful bikes long before that mate. That was 1973! Same time the CB750 came along (a year earlier if I recall?)
I had plenty of decent handling Jap bikes in the 60's. CB160, CB250 Scrambler,
Suzuki X-6 Huslter, and more.

Don't agree about the electrics. I had Brit bikes from years: 1960 (Tiger Cub), '65 (Bonneville), '67 (Dayona 500), '70 (Rickman Metisse) '73 (TR-6) and my last...just sold a few years ago....'79 Bonneville Special. The Special was good. Only a few problems. Every other one caused problems, from Zenor diodes to blown bulbs, to broken/corroded wires...the lot. A great learning experience for me.

The only problem with several Jap bikes I had was a couple dead batteries and bad capacitor. Ride in rain all day and night. They just kept going.

You thought the CB125 Benely looked Chintzy? What about the CB400F in-line four? (I owned one)

I agree the early pressed metal frames and weird forks were crap. And as I said TWICE earlier.....the Brit bikes always out handled early Japanese bikes.
So, on those two issues we agree. I raced BOTH, so I have some
insight into this and its why I ended up on Bultacos and Hodakas. But my street bike? No question: HONDA. But soon the Japanese came on strong....by the end of the 70's they were dominant in every catagory of bike except cruisers.

You made a comment about British metalurgy...should I quote it back?

You'll never get me to say anything good about HD....but if you check racing history in the US, in certain types of racing, you see HD dominates. I'm talking about flat track which during the years in question was the most important motorcycle racing in the US.

Flat Track is where a few minor racing celebraties you may have heard of began....Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Randy Mamola, John Kocinski and a bunch more American Flat trackers cum GP heroes...including Nicky Hayden....who rode....an HD! (30 years later of course) Remember Mert Lawill? (my neighbor) from On Any Sunday? Mert rode HD.

So HD won quite a bit here and did pretty well at Daytona as well. But to the guys I hung around and grew up with the most important racing was GP and the Island...Kenny was a Rebel...and rode a Yamaha, even then.

Your right, I was just laying out a back ground of the scene leading up to the failures of these companies. I've read about the poor quality due to worker dissatisfaction. All true I'm sure. Shame.

Sorry about the mining reference...no offence meant. I am a 25 year union member...one of just a few now in the USA thanks to Bush and his ilk. But the point was to illustrate the sad state of Brit industry then. (now at least you've got Triumph and Formula One, Indy Car, CART and more. About 75% of Americans have no idea that both Indy Car and CART use chassis and motors (mostly) built and designed in the UK.

I disagree.
If you read some of the books by the experts, they contend the big boys at the top knew perfectly well what was coming and let it happen...taking govt. bail outs and subsidies all the way till the end. No matter....my main point is that the Brit industry was in decline and finally went away. The details of exactly how it happened, in this case, are not that important.

Hey, a good friend had the very last Meriden Triumph ...not sure what it was called...it was black, a 1981 manufacture (or maybe '80) and had ....now get this...Bing carbs!!! It was brand new...good clean castings on the motor, nice wheels, disc brakes and a very different look to the seat/tank. Anyone know more about this bike? I've never seen another....and to think.....I could have bought it...cheap!

This is kinda a wash...both sides won. Some guy named Mike Hailwood did pretty good on Hondas at Daytona, and Dick Mann eventually switched to Honda too, IIRC. Both sides won stuff....but by the mid 70's the Brits were about done. And how were the Brits doing in F-1 (motorGP) by the mid 70's. In fact, what was the factory team to compete in F-1? and when? To me, F-1 MotoGP is what counts. Daytona, American road racing, all minor players at that time.

Everyone knows the Brits build the best handling chassis in the world (IMO) and are still damn good today.
Yes, with a hotter motor, could have gone far. But who in motorcycle racing is winning on a British made chassis?

I got a bit different slant on the history from Mike (Michelle Duff) who I met a couple years ago to review her book. And don't forget Suzuki, they were in there too, big time. Check your results. Yam
never used Brit chassis, nor did Suzuki. Evil handling piece of Crap? The Jap bikes just finished more...that's all. Especially the four strokes. Remember the old racer adage: First, you have to finish. Duff raced Arter Matchless/Norton for years before going to Yam. Read her book. (he is a she!! and charming and still fast!)

Cars were in there for historical perspective on those years...and a comment on British motor industry in general, and relevant to making a point.
Back to you mate.

The Harrier is great...I've seen it in action! Not sure we still use it....I think we have our own? You are totally correct about the yanks destroying the Brit aircraft industry. Boeing/CIA/DIA/NSA ??? Who knows, but the whole history has all the ear marks of their work. Remember how new Brit planes kept crashing? A very nasty business.

Read back a few posts to see where I explain how the Japanese got started in racing and their expertise in reverse engineering...not an original design thought in their heads....but they are just SO anal about quality and about
refinement. This is where the superiority lies.

True about early 400-4 cam chains....many made noise and ran poorly but few
exploded. My 400-4 required a new one and frequent adjustment. That was in 1975....When Bonnevilles and BSA's were losing bearings, bending valves and leaking like a seive....just to keep comparisons equal.

I had a '63 step through, 3-speed girls model, no clutch...in 1963. I guess I was a little more self confident than to worry what my "mates" thought. Since I could out ride most of them....they never said a word.

Took those 50's on surf trips to Baja with our older brothers. I was too young to drive. I rode that Honda from Ensenada all the way to San Felipe on the Gulf and back. Then down the coast for miles and miles looking for surf spots. Through the desert too, on the beach and sometimes in the water (low tide).

Fly off the handle? Are you quite serious chap? You need to grow some thicker skin Dodgey. I didn't think I was flyng off the handle....just a little back and forth...very friendly, spirited discussion.
Sorry to see you get so defensive.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Hi Quastdog,

Your first point: Yep, so the thread could run for ever, or until there are no more opinions to be expressed.

Second point: Opinions are like a*seholes - everyones got one.

Good travels,

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Dave