To be fair Chris, I think most manufacturers (including CCM - your local chaps!) are barely making ends meet these days. I personally think they are all basically selling motorcycles too cheap. I wish they were making good money so we would have a lot more choice in models. But I believe most of them are really struggling at present.

Instead they sell bikes below the cost of producing, marketing and distributing them, and then try and make the money back with expensive add-ons and spare parts.

I sure wouldnt want to own shares in a motorcycle manufacturer these days. I am just grateful that someone is coming up with something different in the area of adventure motorcycles.

I guess in the next 5 years or so we are going to be flooded with a lot of cheaper Indian and Chinese motorcycles. The worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer, Hero, has just set up a subsidiary in Europe to distribute its Indian built bikes. Bajaj, Loncin, Kymco ... all coming soon.

When that happens the smaller European manufacturers are really going to have to offer something different and unique or they will go to the wall. And I fear for the future of smaller lighter adventure motorcycles in this future scenario ! :confused1:

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The learner laws may help. When you can't own a 650 until you've taken part 11 of the test and passed your 50th birthday, there will be plenty of choice in 400's!

Europe and Japan are also much more diverse in the mix of bike types than say the US was.

Andy

My problem with this particular CCM is 2-fold: The not exactly glorious record the G450X donor engine had in a race bike ridden by David Knight and the history of lack of sales success of previous CCM offerings like the 404 and 604. CCM went bust in 2004 in the "good old days" of m/c sales.

The 404 was meant to be an improved DRZ sharing the same engine. The DRZ sold by the shedload, the 404 didn't. The 604 had an annoying habit of rivets holding the airbox in place sheering off and heading through the carburettor into the engine with catastrophic consequences.

IMHO, CCM uses the same engineering principles that British Leyland used to have.

As for the price of m/cs, I live in the past. I remember a new Af Twin costing gbp6500. Where are my slippers? :confused1: It's possible to pick up good used adventure bikes for about gpb2500 or 3000. I would never consider buying a new 450 cc bike for 8 grand, especially considering it's dubious parentage.

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TBS.com

So I'm guessing we're not going to see you on a CCM any time soon then?

I don't want to be an apologist for CCM - god knows their bikes have their share of faults, but writing the whole company off like that is a little unfair. Sure, they're not Honda or Yamaha - or even KTM come to that, they're a small, back street, bike company buying in the bits they can't make. The comparison, IMHO also, isn't with Red Robbo's British Leyland but closer to Colin Chapman's Lotus (in the early days anyway) - a company with very dubious finances that makes different, slightly overpriced bikes for a niche market and with their product range determined more by what they can get hold of rather than what they'd like to make.

Like Lotus they can be rough around the edges so they're not going to appeal to everyone - I bought my 604 as the basis of an overlanding bike rather than the finished article and seven years on I don't regret the decision. It's been as reliable and dependable as any bike I've ever owned. It has its niggles - the DellOrto carb is really only good as landfill, but the airbox rivets is a new one on me. I've just had a quick look in mine and can't see any - the airbox is a one piece moulding. Anything like that would still have to get through the airfilter.

I doubt that CCM will turn their finances around with the 450 - it's just too expensive (for me anyway), but like the 604 when I bought it, the spec looks interesting. Maybe if a few city bankers buy them initially I'll be able to take advantage of the fall off a cliff depreciation in a couple of years time. That's how I bought my Elan.

I don't know the G450X motor but if the GP450 comes like that out of the crate (maybe less the Mules?) there's not much more you need to buy, is there (other than a used DRZ ready to go for half the price).

I am wondering if a 450 is in fact the ideal size for mono cylinder overland bike in terms of real world power, economy and weight. A typical 650 can get heavy in my experience and the Jap 250 I'm currently on can be a bit breathless on fast, busy roads but great on the dirt. A 400-450 version of my 250 - sort of modern XR400 - would be just right.

Good luck to CCM, I say. Nearly bought one in the late 70s but came to my senses. Years later had a 604 on one of my desert tours. Didn't miss a beat iirc compared to minor probs on KTMs, tho I do recall the airbox intake copped a lot of sand off the back wheel.

Ch

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Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail

Well with EFI, 450 cc can a decent amount of power in a light bike. I its original guise, the BMW 450 produced closer to 52 hp, but was a racing engine, with titanium valves and very short service intervals. I believe CCM have detuned it to 40 hp (about the same as a Tenere which I think is 43?) but the bike is a good 50-60kgs lighter than a Tenere.

I think the weight of 650cc engines and bikes is an issue manufacturers havent bothered to address ... as they dont see it as important. Which is unfortunate for people who do see it as important.

I weighed my 650cc Rotax donk a few years back and it was right on 50 kgs. Looking at the Yamaha equivalent, which looks a lot heavier and bulkier, I wouldnt be surprised if it was 60 kgs - which is the weight of a KTM 990 V-Twin engine. KTM have got its 690 engine down to about 39 kgs. Which makes me think if Rotax or Yamaha actually put some effort into making their 650 cc singles lighter, they too could bring them down to the 40 kg mark.

The latest KTM singles up to 500 cc are down to around 29 kgs. I am guessing my 60 hp Husaberg 570 engine is somewhere around 32 kgs. And I would think the BMW 450 engine is also around 30-32 kgs.

While Yamaha will spend a lot of time, effort and money making their 450cc engines as light as they can while maintaining durability, there seems to be zero interest on their behalf to make their 650 cc engine lighter (there's got to be 20 kgs they could trim off it with little effect on durability) or to make the actual bike lighter (probably another 20 kgs they could trim off there). For some reason, manufacturers see 650 cc bikes as single cylinder tanks with no motivation to optimise weight. Whereas the 450cc equivalents offer lean, weight optimised engines and bikes.

A look at whats possible in weight reduction can be seen in the swedish engineered Highland 950cc V-twin (before the tragic plane crash)... 130 hp from just 44 kg engine ... now in a streetbike that weighs just 144 kgs. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fi...g/viewall.html

The 50 kg 650cc rotax in my XC is over 20 years old in design. The only changes in that time have been to the head. Fine tune cams, combustion chamber, fuel injection etc. They never even got around to adding a 6th gear. A bit of focussed redesign work could cut 10-12 kgs off the engine and gearbox and add an additional gear.

No-one has bothered with it, cause 650cc engines just dont need to be sexy apparently. Market research seems to tell them that 650 buyers arent picky. KTM at least has put come effort into its current 650 - 690cc engine ... probably because the engine is also used in its sporty duke. Problem is the engine has the Dukes narrow, street racer gearbox.

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Hopefully they've done something with the clutch on the piece of crap...going back to 2010 there was quite a large touratech/BMW enterage at dawn till dusk event in Wales I seem to remember a few g450s on their side having clutch replacement and I passed at least two stuck half way up climbs not going forwards very well..
I think colebatches suggestion of a reduced weight say yamaha 660 is bang on what's needed..the more robust motor in that chassis package would make more sense than the slightly detuned,titanium valve,short stroke,high rpm,short crank life 450 engine..
One day when I get time I may just have create a contraption out of bits to fit the requirements..it would probably go like 34l tenere with ktm 690 motor in it or 660 yam motor..the big tank,comfy seat,off road ability of the old yamaha with a more modern motor that's got slightly longer legs..?..anyone wanna place an order?

Going back and reading this thread from the start I came upon Colebatch's post ... #9 on page one quoted above. Excellent point and something I'm sure CCM are aware of.

This is a big deal ... and getting bigger. It's sure that some of the "new" companies will focus on producing middle weight Adventure bikes. Suffice it to say two punters going RTW on a Bajaj, Loncin or Hero, won't have the same impact as two film stars on BMW GS's. But how long can that "name brand" cache hold sway with the masses? Eventually the Indian and Chinese bikes will actually get better ... might even get very good? It's already happening.

Remember, KTM are now owned near 49% by Bajaj India. Some interesting bikes coming out of that partnership.

Certain riders will hold fast to the standard bearers ... but many aren't long time dedicated MC travelers. Mostly tourists & local riders. BMW's GS sales aren't in immediate danger from CCM or Indian or Chinese interlopers.
No, the GS mystic (myth?) will continue to hold strong ... and IMO, BMW have earned it. No, I'm not saying the GS is the ideal Adventure bike (Ewan and Charlie proved that) ... but it IS a good bike overall. Much better than 5 or 10 years ago ... but not a bike for everyone.

Looking round the over lander community, easy to see many "new" riders are on a budget, maybe just out of school? More well off riders are usually too old and bent to get much out of a performance bike like the CCM. Many stick to old air heads or KLR's. Sure, they have the money ... but aren't in need of top flight performance. The younger crowd won't be able to afford an 8,000 UKP travel bike. (about $12,000 USD) Maybe in 10 or 15 years?

I wish CCM all the best ... but even on a good day ... their demographic is tiny and shrinking as more well off riders age. Older travelers are going to want to be catered to, many will sign up for guided tours. Can't blame them. The bike ridden will be of less importance I suspect. Look at the BMW crowd that Tiffany Coates led around in S. America. Lots of Gray hair and bald heads there ... and good on them for getting off the couch and doing it. But I'm not sure ANY will be buying a CCM ... unless as a gift for a son/daughter or nephew!