Is the BMW 450 enduro dead?
Derfor kjøper BMW Husqvarna - Bike

Maybe, maybe not - toss a coin on that one!

For my money, I would say the 450cc will remain - it has been run by BMW recently, albeit well down the field.
But, it is early days; my local BMW dealer don't want to sell Husqvarnas - they can sell all the BMW bikes they can get, and that is without the new 800GS to handle in 2008.

BMW 450 Enduro Completes WEC Test - MotorcycleUSA.com

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Dave

I spent a bit of time with a RE dealer the other day; the last of the non-Euro compliant emissions bikes are now in the UK (basically the classics, as sold in India) - from Jan 08 the range available in the UK will be smaller therefore and will be only the modern engines; the Electra 500cc range.

Apparently as the emission requirements get more stringent for RE, a 250cc engine will be manufactured to meet these.

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Dave

There is a story circulating on another website about Honda "going head to head" with BMWs' 1200GS by changing the Varadero in 2008.

It is a nice rumour (and has been around for some years in the form of a wish for a decent replacement for the AT) - has anyone got better information about this?

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Dave

Honda can certainly blow the doors off BMW anytime they wish.

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

[QUOTE=Walkabout;153197]Maybe, maybe not - toss a coin on that one!

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Yeah, all is nice on the paper, but where's that Honda?

BMW heavy? Why contributing the myths and lies, again, Mollydog? Compare it with similar bikes first. 199kg dry, a big trailie bike having 1200cc engine, lot of additional stock comforts (standard heated grips, ABS, etc), telelever and shaft drive. I.e. V-Strom 1000cc is 208kg dry (the same weight as my almost 10 years ancient old oilhead GS w/o ABS btw), while having conventional forks and chain drive with regular swingarm. Name me a big trailie jap twin in production, having that capacity engine and is lighter than R1200GS?

If I'm not mistaken Honda Varadero uses de-tuned VTR race proven engine, and the bike weights 235kg dry. It's 36kg more than your "overweight" BMW that has bigger capacity engine with higher torque output.

BMWs weight is well in competition, and in fact, in the forefront of it, considering it has telelever and shaft drive, if you compare it with similar purpose and size bikes. I.e. KTM 990ADV is 199kg dry, it's the same weight, while having 200cc smaller engine, chain drive and regular forks, and is more offroad-oriented than the GS. And the same weight while KTM claims it has the lightest and the most compact V-Twin motor in the market of that capacity. Looking at other big trailies in production: Aprilia Caponord, V-Strom 1000 are another examples here, all of them are heavier than GS with all of its bits and bobs. Looking at the more realistic wet weights then BMW has a advantage of air-oil cooled engine not having cooling liquids, good example here is V-Strom that is 240kg (528lb) wet and R1200GS is 225kg wet weight, road ready fully fueled. Fuel tanks are approx the same size btw. And what we see? That, mythically known as, "lardy GS", having burden to carry telelever and shaft drive, is a massive 15kg lighter than smaller engined V-Strom 1000.

I'd recommend stop talking bollocks about BMWs weight.

Here's what Honda should do in my opinion (my shorter version of "M-s bollox") : shaft driven, like the old Honda XLV trailie was, horizontally mounted boxer-2 (i.e. reduced B-4 or B-6 off from Goldwing) based large calibre (torque-over-HP oriented, not another pointless high HP-output revver) dual purpose bike, with ABS, catalythic converter and other new generation gizmos and bits. Very comfortable & spacy for rider and pillion, good wind protection, 500+miles per day no prob, and all of this should fit into package that is lighter than 200kg dry. A must is over 10,000km maintenance intervals, over 600W generator and less than 4.5L per 100km fuel consumption on highway. I'd be a hard job looking how much GoldWings weight, but Honda has lot of tech tricks in reserve so should be able to do it...... I'd definitely consider buying one then. Do I win a breakthrough innovative design award for Honda now? :P

But do you really doubt Honda could build such a bike?

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

I don't doubt, anyone or any make could build any bike with motivation (if it makes a sufficient income), but still, where's your supposed bike then?

Loyal to Honda people have been waiting for years Africa Twins successor without results. Many of them have already bought a GS or 990/950ADV that are probably the best bikes in their fields currently. Some wait for the F800GS hoping it'll be similar to AT with looks and decent upgrade from the engine side.

Don't change the topic to world championships thinking it'll solve your lies. You deliberately bash BMWs around the forums, which is OK for me since brainless BMW bashing is getting old and out of fashion, only some senile guys continue to do it these days manly because of jealousy . What I don't cope with, and the reason I replied here, is that you also deliberately generating and contributing myths about BMWs being overweight in their field in various threads, which, as explained in my previous post, is a lie.

Very probably does. German makes are one of the most precise and strict in the official weight specs, changing something can bring scandal. While I've heard the in the past before more strict weight standards came on japs even took off the tyres, or even seat and windscreen for "more suitable" dry weight specs to be better than European makes. Probably this is why we still rarely see wet weight specs for many bikes. BMW is one of the few makes who reveals that specification on all of their bikes.

In your case: GS was ABS model and with extras: engine guards and/or pannier frames+panniers? R1200GS is specified 225kg for a road ready fully fuled bike with no extras, any extra will add more weight.

Yeah, I'd like 2008 Honda GoldWing, with airbag and DVD-player to be cheap as chips too, so I can buy it as a sunday ride

Like most of racing engines, the hand-made RC211V in V5 format hasn't found a way into production after years of its birth, being pointlessly expensive to produce on a production conveyor where different laws apply. Production (motorized conveyor) and racing (handwork) are two different things, with astronomically different cost-per-unit factors involved and very few regular motorcycling people have a serious need for strict racing technologies. Those, who need die-hard racing technologies and use it to full probably make 0.001% of the clients visiting MC shops around the Globe. Incoming amount of money from the production itself decides the real mass production direction and you can't change it alone. If it's cheaper and more effective to produce I4 in big numbers rather than V5 in small numbers, then I'll be so. Probably if Honda starts to make RC51 as a production and close to the performance specs the hand-made racing cousin has, then the next thing we hear is Mollydog is bashing Honda making a too expensive bike.

Like you've never owned a modern BMW yourself and thus you don't know anything about them, and still you keep contributing lies and myths about them.

Thanks, but never needed your help anyway Racing is more for PR, company image and sales booster rather than a tool for production development. For production it plays a minor role, yeah a bit bigger role for sports bikes and strict-MX/Enduro bikes, but most most of other type of bikes it plays relatively minor note, especially for big trailies.

With your logic, then if considering all the success in racing then the Varadero has to be less than 150kg, ...and 700cc Trans Alp has to be less than 130 kg. Well, (with lot of handwork) they can make 1000cc 250+bhp 5-cylinder V-engined GP bike around 130kg range (before the 148kg weight limit came on, so they now put "ballast" on it), so 150kg for Varadero would be a fair play don't you thnk? But why V-2 Varadero is still much more heavy than a BMW GS? 100 kilograms more than its supposed to be? In fact Varadero is one of the heaviest big traile currently around and Honda hasn't made any considerably lighter multicylinder big trailie with similar CC than a old farty BMW GS throughout it's 25+ years of history. So how much the racing success has been affecting their big trailie evolution? PS: BMW or Suzuki or KTM haven't had nearly that much wins in that wide spectrum of racing as Honda had for decades, but most of them make lighter big trailes than Honda. Where are those smart Honda's tech tricks you mentioned?

They're a small company and they're different, they get all the bashing and criticism because of thinking different. They don't have agressive proven-to-be-successful "strenght in numbers" strategy like KTM has in offroad and rallye world or the jap big four in tar racing world, so I wouldn't expect them that much in racing unless they get a very big sponsor contracts involved and forming number of different independent teams in the same race rather than trying their luck with one team to save costs for the company.

You's to are like 2 old grannys. Yes honda should pull the finger out and either make a better varadero for more off road type riding or bring back at better AT. Far enough BMW GS's are different and they have spent alot of money of RD and thats why the bike is such a hit with most people you just get on it and ride. Maybe it does feel wierd at the start but most bikes do after you get used to another one.

If honda did pull the finger out image what they could make. The SP1 was made by Mr Honda because someone in another bike company pissed him off. So i think he just said to his designers here limit less money build me a brillaint bike, and there you have it SP1 was made. Could they do it with a new AT or different varadero yea why not.

As for the BMW GS's vs a new honda something it would be good wouldnt it??

What about this one? Looks funny!

the bike looks like a fly big fuel tank by the look of it ,set of knobbies cushion for the seat and you should be off looks light enough.

It seems that there is a bit of a lull in the rumour mongering!

The weekly news in the UK has this one about the MG Stelvio:-
Video: Guzzi's Stelvio BMW GS killer spied testing - Motorcycle News - MCN
Online it does not add much to earlier information - It looks pretty definite that this bike will be shown at the Milan show in early November. However there are some pics in this weeks paper version of the MCN and they look very much like a BMW 1200GS in concept, but it is shown with a twin round headlight; this could be a "bolt on" for the spy cameras.
No price is mentioned and nor is the 850cc version mentioned.

There does not seem to be much of great interest to be revealed at the Japanese bike show (Tokyo?) so all speculation is on the Milan show, especially for the BMW 800GS.

Anyone going to the Milan event to get the pics??

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Dave

It's appearing in the US this weekend - can't remember the race series, but it is reputedly the first appearance over there.

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Dave

Could this be it?

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Dave