I was a big big fan of Japanese bikes, but is clearly now that they have lost their compass in the ADV segment.

The Tenere is too big, too heavy, too much road oriented? You want a modern Africa twin more powerful, less weight, better suspensions, better on road/off road performance.... Well, you have it. The 950 KTM is all that. It is like AT should be if it was remade.

You want the new Tenere 660 to be less weight, more power, better suspension. Well, you have it, the KTM 640 ADV has all of that.

These are two example of excellent adv bikes which are ready to go from the shop.

And don't start now with mechanical failures. All the bikes have their own failures, so does the KTM's, but they can be fixed on the road by some mechanic skills which all the ADV riders should anyway have.

Do you remember the three funny polak going to Siberia on KTM ADV 640? No problems at all, and they were absolutely thrilled with the bikes.

I'm not!

Seems to me that people tend to push their own agenda ON THREADS LIKE THIS and are dead against other bikes they don't happen to have owned.

FACT - The Yamaha XT family of bikes are simply LEGENDARY in terms of overland adventure. Together with BMW (boxers) they set the standards for all future overland bikes.

The likes of KTM (although fine machines in their own right) do not possess the provenence of Yamaha in this discipline or a long history in producing top notch overland bikes. In any case, KTM's are way too expensive in the UK.

This new bike seem to me to be almost exactly the same as the BMW 1200 GS - too heavy and cumbersome for hardcore offroad travel but perfect for 70% road 30% light trails. I would imagine the bike will appeal to those seeking an alternative to a GS?

__________________
Triumph Bonneville 800 (2004), Yamaha XT600E (1999), Honda XBR500 (1986).

The whole brand fanboy routine is pretty boring. You can't argue that it's a good bike simply because it's a Yamaha XT. What has it got in common with the 'famed' XTs of the 80s and 90s? But (and this is going to annoy you and any other XT fanboys even more), surely most of the old XT range were not even very good bikes anyway? - Cheap poor quality suspension and wheels ring a bell, as does broken subframes and dodgy electrics...


Back on topic:
I don't see how this bike offers anything more than the big BMWs? Surely if you want to steal market share from another brand you need to offer something bigger and better. The only thing that seems to set the bikes apart is engine layout, but even that would be a mark for BMW in my mind.

__________________
UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

God you guys are a finicky bunch!

This 1200 Tenere has nothing to offer the motorcycling community as an improved enduro for RTW travellers.
All Yamaha's entry into this niche is doing is acknowledging that there is a pot of gold to be shared.

Proof of both of these is Ducati entering this segment.
2010 Ducati Multistrada 1200 First Look - Ducati Street Bike First Look - Motorcycle USA


So why is this Tenere being fretted about on the HUBB? As Ted noted...there isn't and never will be a turn-key solution for the overlander...as our mules have to be special for our finicky needs

2010 Yamaha Super Tenere - ADVrider

105 pages of posts(1711 posts)...OMG.

__________________
edde
93 BMW K75s
www.motoedde.com

Point well taken! It's been a winner for many years. With cruisers image is key. But the fact is .... most of Honda's cruisers have not sold all that well in the last few years. The Rune is discontinued, this after Honda spent 10's of millions in R&D. The new Fury is too new to know how sales will be. The VTX cruiser class that Honda sold for so many years with success, has pretty much disappeared. They are just no longer selling.

Like many of us here I am biased against cruisers, even though I understand the business logic behind their production. I've always liked motorcycles that are actually ridable, that are versatile, stop well and handle. Most cruisers don't, but there are a few exceptions! What I think we will see regards cruisers are new bikes that have the look but actually perform. The Victory sport tourer bikes seem to head in this direction.

The fact is, many cruiser riders are new, inexperienced riders. The good news about that is that some younger riders leave cruisers behind and buy a real motorcycle.

Nothing is perfect ... you cant buy the 950 or the 640 Adventure anymore because they are carburettored, and that means they don't meet emissions rules anymore. So you cant get them in the shop anymore. Sadly KTM is the only major manufacturer who does not seem to have mastered fuel injection yet ...

And its not totally true the Poles had no problems with the bikes ... they had a few - including problems related to the bikes being carburettored in the high altitude of the Pamir. They liked the bikes but to say they were "absolutely thrilled" is a bit too strong. They were complaining privately about the weight of the bikes as soon as they finished. All 3 guys have since sold them. Mac and Mirek have 400s now and Safran has a 200.


- - -


As a footnote, I would just like to say that this is an online forum about adventure motorcycling ... a new bike comes out, and its natural that people with an interest in adventure motorcycles discuss their opinions about it. A lot of people clearly think its way too heavy. A few others seem personally aggrieved by this line of thought.

But there are no personal attacks here ... we are discussing a motorcycle for crying out loud. No one is saying if you like this motorcycle you are a halfwit or have a small penis. But if we cant say we don't like the bike and why, then whats the point of discussing it. We can all be like the bike magazines and say every new bike is wonderful, but then there is no integrity in the forum. We're not supposed to be a bunch of cheerleaders are we?

I cant really see how people get offended because someone else doesnt like a motorcycle they like. Its just a lump of rubber, plastic and metal. Its not a person! :confused1:

If "pushing an agenda" is (a) hoping for better adventure motorcycles or (b) being disappointed by this one, then hell yeah, I am guilty.

By the way, what exactly is this "agenda" people who dont like this bike are supposed to be pushing?

__________________

Not sure what you're saying when you say the engine layout of the new XT1200 would be "a mark for BMW". Nath, study up on 'yer history their mate! Do you think BMW "invented" the parallel twin?

BMW have never, ever designed or manufactured a parallel twin. The F800 line is designed and built by Rotax, not BMW. Ever notice anything familiar about that F800 motor? Yep, it's a near copy of Yamaha's early XTZ Tenere'/TDM parallel twin 750/850 motor designed in the early 80's. You remember the one? Nine Dakar wins might refresh your memory!

The new 1200 Tenere' is a bigger, more modern version of this motor. Yamaha are pretty innovative. Did you know they built a full suspension bicycle in 1973! A friend just bought one off Ebay!! Who knew?

No need to go over the top trying to create an argument from a simple innoccent comment!

Maybe I was a bit vague as you misinterpret what I meant. The biggest difference between the big BMW 1200s and the new Tenere 1200, is the engine layout. Those boxer twins have a massive following, and most people who have owned a BMW will rave on about the 'character' of the engine and other crap like that. They've also been the iconic BMW engine throughout the history of the brand, and they have a reputation for being ultra reliable work horses. And of course there's the supposed lower weight distribution.

Now I personally don't see the appeal of the big boxer twin, and I don't neccessarily agree with the above. But to my mind it's one of the key attractions to the big beemers. I can't see how a new and unproven watercooled 1200cc parrallell twin is going to get people drooling and be the deciding factor to make them choose the Yamaha over the BMW.


The BMW is an established market leader. What does this new Yamaha offer to tempt away customers? I think it would have made more sense for them to make the bike as lightweight as possible, and sell it as a large CC progression from the old 750, or from their current 660. What they've actually done is make it as big and heavy as possible whereby they're competing for the exact same customers as the beemer.

__________________
UK to Mongolia 2009, on a DR350

Yeah but Nath...you failed to ask yourself the question...if the difference between the weight of the average rider of the BMW 1200gs' and the Tenere 1200's is greater than the weight difference between the bikes...does the weight difference between the bikes really matter?

__________________
edde
93 BMW K75s
www.motoedde.com

Have to agree with all your good points Nath. Most riders know nothing about Yamaha's involvement in Dakar or dual sport bikes, which happened long before BMW ever dreamed of the first GS.

But BMW has done really well with an out dated design by good use of slick marketing and constant repetition of their "superior" mantra. Many actually go for this crap. Doing this for over 5 decades BMW have cemented their reputation. The latest Long Way Round films just add to their cache ... and sales in the UK reflect just what a big shove these films have given BMW.

As I said in an earlier post, Yamaha will have a big challenge bringing in new buyers for this new bike or getting BMW riders to jump ship to Yamaha. I also agree Yamaha may be better served pursuing a lighter more adventure based bike.

But the fact is the market (and the WHOLE industry) is changing and I fear Yamaha may have entered into a market segment that may wither and die. Aging demographic, heavy and expensive bike in a very bad economy, unproven (to the uneducated) bike going against the establishment.

Well, I reckon many people thinking of getting a 1200GS Adv will buy this instead.....and who could blame them.

It will probably be very good at the purpose for which it was built.

Adventures means different things to different people; to some, repairing an older bike by the side of the road in a foreign land is and adventure; some other people just want to ride and take the safest, most reliable bike they can.

If it comes to Canada, I'll get one; if not, an F800GS will have to suffice.

Here here. A few days ago I was going to post that I was surprised that this thread wasn't degenerating into the usual "handbags at 5 paces" session of other "which bike" type threads. I think it's great that the vast majority of overland bike travel enthusiasts on this forum are able to dispassionately give and take opinions.

FWIW, my opinion on the new 1200 Tenere: Too fat and heavy, like the other fat and heavy 1100/1150/1200GS/1050Tiger type bikes. Then again, Yamaha are trying to get a foot hold in the Obese bike niche. Good luck to them.

Don't have the cash either.

cheers
Fat Boy:alucard:

__________________

Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Why "who can blame them?"?

Arguably, the 1200GS is a very good bike for the purpose it was built....

Yes, people have complained about 12s, but I am very wary building an opinion based solely on unsolicited opinions. One has no idea how many perfectly satisfied owners are riding around. After all stacks have been sold...

The TEN-12 is heavier than a GSA, and will not hold it's value to the same degree. I have no idea how the TEN-12 will do: I am sure ti will sell, but is it going to devour BM's market share? That is a question of speculation.

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Ah, I feel somewhat responsible for this, having stated it earlier, based on the information from BMUU......

The 1200GS-A is, in stock form lighter than the XT1200Z, but the XT comes with all the extras already loaded and included in the weight, whereas the 1200GS-A isn't. ABS for instance is a further 10Kg's! 10Kg's, what's it made from, lead!

So in ABS for the two bikes are, at least on paper about the same.

I think the Yam will sell, but alas not to the likes of me, but it will sell and dealers have already taken orders for them. I think the fact that someone will order a bike, for a considerable sum of money, without seeing it, sitting on it or riding it is in itself in the spirit of adventure. I did with my 660Z, but the money was some £9000 less than what you part with for a 1200Z (OK , I bought mine 2 years ago).

I've noticed some posts having a go at the 660 Tenere, I think if people were to actually experience the ride of one of these, then many of those oppinions and speculations would be put to bed, as they say.