it's not the bmw/gs at all I object to. it's the idea that you somehow have to spend a lot of money to ride a bike in europe, including gravel roads.

if you are on a stock bike then you ride it like a stock bike. if you spend £3000 (on mod'ing a BMW or a Honda, etc) then you are paying to ride it, essentially, faster. 30 mph over the roughest stuff rather than 10 mph. pretty much anything with 2 wheels can be ridden/got-over the roughest stuff, it just comes down to how hard you want to push it.

there are people riding around on all sorts of bikes (2-up) all over the place. You can, but don't need to fully prep/upgrade. it just means that you ride accordingly. look at all the scooters riding around africa, 2-up, 3-up, etc. if you find yourself on a trip wishing you could do more/faster, then you change your bike for the next one (we're not talking RTW here). the OP is talking about gentle stuff, not RTW. and mainly roads.

I think it's just a different mindset. some people just want to get on two wheels and ride around any problem/weakness. others want total piece of mind and get annoyed if something breaks. if you know motogp, then Rossi is the former and Gibernau was the latter.

to say that a DL (I have one) needs lots of money spent, but a GS doesn't. Oh and here's a picture of my GS 'we ride in the same mood 2-up' (ie faster than stock). doesn't present a completely honest account given the context of this discussion. that GS, ridden in that 'mood' has been mod'd to allow him to ride 2-up in that 'mood'.

the completely stock 1150 GS I rode from Mali to London was fine (not my cuppa, and too expensive to fix though). it was ridden down there 2-up. But going back onto the DL, after 1 month on the GS, felt weird. The DL felt like it was very flimsy and about to break in half. but that's just relative to the weight/bulk of a GS. Many people take the DL650 because the 1000 is deemed too heavy, so what they'd make of a GS I don't know.

I understand why GS owners think Jap bikes are flimsy, even the big ones like DL or Varadero. But, in my experience, it says more about the GS than the DL. part of the appeal of the GS is its stability, and that's largely down to its weight. it is incredible difficult to upset its course once set, either by wind or road surface.

Plenty of Vstroms have been in knarly places. Some ride crazy places, especially the DL650. You need just a few cheap and simple mods.
I've never heard of a broken oil cooler on a Vstrom. Have you? Added a "Fenda' Extenda' thingy to keep mud off the rad and oil cooler, maybe that helped? It cost $10. No issues for me with rocks breaking anything. 70K miles. Also, the cooler has a screen over it. Still, it does LOOK vulnerable, I agree. But somehow no damage ever seems to happen, even riding 70 mph on dirt roads over thousands of miles. Go figure

Suspension is not bad stock (ride one and find out), does benefit from firming up, especially going two up RTW, off road. (I go mostly solo) Spent a whooping $80 on fork springs & $15 for heavier fork oil. I had the stock KYB shock revalved (Race Tech) for $150. Is this a lot of money? Shock never leaked, worked great! Most of the GS guys I know took off brand new WP shocks and bought $1400 (each) Ohlins, front and back. They are very nice, but I thought the R12GS rode great stock? Local BMW dealer had a sale of left over cast away parts. He had about 20 sets of stock GS WP shocks, selling very very cheap. Some showroom new. Guess what? No one bought them. But they sell lots of Ohlins stickers! Some Vstrom owners put on Wilbers, Elka, Ohlins or other aftermarket shock. The Wilbers perform good but some blew out the seals riding on wash board roads. This was known since 2003 or so.

The Vstrom rides lighter than a GS in the dirt. With right tires of course. It's pretty handy if you're careful! The 650 V is about 100 lbs. lighter than an 1150GS, about 40 lbs. lighter than a R1200GS. (wet weights)
Vstrom needs crash bars & hand guards. Still won't crash as nicely as a BMW GS but it will survive. For me, it's easier to ride in tough, slow going conditions, so you might crash LESS ? Never broke the plastic but some have. So what? Take it off and ride on. As long as you don't punch a hole in the Radiator, then you are OK. A RTW bike will always take a beating, replacing plastic might be optional? A water cooled bike is always a worry off road, but with decent guards most can survive if rider takes care.
The Vstrom is extremely strong. Frame, sub frame, engine, all very strong. You DO have to watch the lower engine case if going in Rock Gardens. Bash plate a good idea.
Suzuki Germany designed the V-Strom ... so maybe they added in more off road toughness than is obvious? Here in California we see more V-Strom's riding around than Harley-Davidson's! They seem to be more popular than ever.
Why is that?


Vstrom meet - Germany

Some history:
History of V-Strom - Stromtrooper.com

Regarding prejudice, I was talking in generalities, not about you in particular

It's not that I think Japanese bikes flimsy. That's mostly what I've ever owned and with plenty of satisfaction. But plastics are flimsy, and plastics do break, and after one has ridden a trip, and one wants to sell the bike, for example, those plastics need to replaced at a cost. A pair of crash bars could save him those costs. That was the only point I was making.

If Richard86 is comfortable with that, I'm sure the Suzuki, or any number of other models would do famously, as my own 17 year old Transalp is doing....

No, but then I don't own one so I've not really been looking for examples.

If I were to consider buying a DL, I'd research it, or buy/make additional protection for that part of the bike. I look at a Vstrom and that is something I perceive as a weakness. Whether it is or not is for the OP, or any other potential buyer to assess for themselves...

It was as simple a statement as that.

As far as your other points are concerned, I think you addressed them to the wrong person.

They're much cheaper and can go round corners?

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

A lot of good advice in these replies but I just had to bring up this quote-- after I stopped laughing.

Sure they will last a lifetime- just like any other bike - that is if you dont ride very much or are counting a lifetime in dog's years and consider servicing them right as in replacing every broken bit each time it happens.
Reminds one of the story of the aged limberjack who claimed that he used the same axe for his entire 60 year carreer chopping trees"Yep , used the same axe all them years, only changed the handle five times and put two new heads on"

Regardless of what make of bike- they are all machines and they all will wear out.This side of the Atlantic any BMW with more than 1000 00km is virtually considered used up, dealerswill not want them as trades. If a GS1100 falls over the plastic front turn signals are trash
Just buy whatever you like and can afford, ride it and see what you find out and go from there.

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http://advrider.com/index.php?thread....207964/page-5 then scroll down to post #93

I think everyones forgetting that the lad is 24 and said he wants to keep some street cred...

A BMW is not street cred until you're in you're at least in your 50's ! Especially an old GS.

Either are most of the bikes suggested here. I did my first trip at 23 on an Africa Twin.. I couldnt wait to get home and sell it so I could buy a blade !

Now, im the other way round.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I really shouldn't get sucked into these "which bike is best threads" but on this occassion we seem to be getting way off what the original poster was asking about.

He said he was looking for a cheaper alternative to a 1200GSA with street cred for mostly road but a little bit of backroads stuff 2 up. I assume he was talking about a new bike and expecting it to do what he needs straight out of the showroom.

Street cred is hard to pin down as it usually depends on who's looking and where you are. In my opinion a fully kitted Airhead GS would have more street cred than anything if you're in a campsite in Botswana amongst a group of overland travellers. The 1200GS has street cred from Tescos to Timbuktu almost independant of the onlooker as a result of LWR/LWD publicity. There aren't many other bikes out there with anywhere near the same status but I still think that the KTM adventure is the next best (but hardly any cheaper).

If it were me I'd go for a 2 year old GSA. There are plenty of low mileage ones out there and they are probably a better bet than a new one as some of the teething troubles will have been fixed.

That's not far off! The Cruiser crowd has been pretty hard hit here in California. Garage Jewelery is going on the auction block for a lot of these riders. Great deals for anyone in the market for a Harley now, but you still see hundreds of daily riders commuting to work and such.

Any bike you get for doing longer tours will need some up grading and additions. Vstrom, GS, Africa Twin, Gold Wing, XR400. They all can benefit from improvements.

They all get varying degrees of crash damage and they all have maintenance issues.

Like Sjoerd said, get a bike and starting riding. Over time and miles it all well become clear what works and what does not. Starting on something cheap, light and reliable is not a bad way to begin ... or end.

This is the bike you need....

60000 faultless, comfortable miles. Once you've ridden the Triumph triple you'll be hooked.

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2002 Tiger955i @ 72000 miles.
2013 Tiger800XC (2nd one) @ 15000 miles.

Tigers good at a lot of things ... herding Sheep ...

Going to watch a Western Shootout in a Nevada Ghost town ...

or exploring our best California roads.

I promised myself not to take part in "Which Bike" threads, but somehow I did and now I see it's opened a can of worms by just giving a personal opinions, since this thread has already gone "into bananas" like someone ingeniously said on HUBB once.


You see those type of bars a lot in Asia among local bikers and I reckon they're very useful for serious travelling in hard conditions when falls are prone to happen. After a fall, a lot easier to pick the bike up as well.

You can laugh, it's good for your health.

Everything that moves, wears, true. But the thing is, some bikes just don't wear that easily out like others do. Okay, I am biased on older oilheads, but still I haven't seen a big trailie (let's not count Wings and Pans here okay) that has made over 300 000 miles without a any work on the engine. I've seen loads of over 100K, some over 200K and a couple of R1100s well over 300 000 miles and the guys who ride them don't pamper them like tar-tourers - they ride them every day to work, do their third-world travels, trash them offroad, often carry silly heavy things on them (furniture!) and all they needed to replace are consumable parts - and yes, before you start knocking that final drive, it's pretty much concensus now that the BMW's FD main bearing is a consumable part with a life expectancy of 50 000 - 150 000 miles if shimmed correct, but for me it's still better than oiling and replacing chain a lot more frequently. While I know Afrca Twin owners who swear their bikes are bomb proof yet they've already stripped them into bits for a complete engine overhaul in less than 200 000 miles, some less than 100K. How many bikers do this mileage in such an extreme variety of riding conditions? How many of of the bikers stick to their bikes that long? This is what I mean under "lasting a lifetime" judging what's the average annual mileage for an average biker (with a lot if not majority probably being "sunday" riders). Maybe I want to say this because I don't buy a new bike every second or third season, I do ride mine daily back at home, do offroad, do shopping, now I'm even on an RTW with the same bike and I plan to keep mine till it's totalled or stolen, or worn out like you say, if that'll be the case, so be it and I'll report it to you. 100 000 km is just a run-in bike for me if it's an oilhead BMW boxer GS, but like you say, most of buyers (and thus dealers) see it as excessive mileage already. I don't see a simple means transport in the motorcycles like many bikers do and replace them as running boots as new models come out - with "too old", "I'm tried of it" excuses. I see character, a form of art, packed with design wonders, innovations of their time and a phenomena that together work in the way described: joy, that makes me just grin, and gives me a real sense of freedom while riding it (and from the other end I can probably fall a sleep while riding a V-Strom, it's all down to the personal taste of bikes, different strokes for different blokes, as they say). If I'd just see a point A-to-B transport machine in two wheels then I'd probably already chosen a Japanese 125cc scooter for our RTW to save on fuel or a comfortable air-conditioned 4x4 with a healthier budget.

And oh yes, on most big trailies the turn signals are trash once you've gone down in a proper way. Made in China $10 turn signals made for offroad bikes with rubber arms are the first mod you should do with 10 minute installation. But at least you haven't broken well over $300 worth of side plastics and other bits with that off…


True, if you take appropriate precaution, I'd say there is a statistically high chance you can even do a RTW on a bike with a fairing made out of shiny transparent plastic glass with programmed flashing disco-lights below it without leaving a scratch on the surface or a visible dirt mark. But will you have freedom to go where ever you like, open the throttle full on a steep rocky trail when you feel you're in the right mood for doing so?

I guess it all goes under "your mileage may vary" case, where everybody has its own opinion about it and nothing can be classified as true or false. It's all up to the rider who has to choose/set up the bike for the personal needs. My personal opinion was just to be on the safe side rather than put all tour hopes on your own precautions and be constantly stressed with your own concerns that you may break something any time. At the same time this doesn't neccesarily mean you have to install full Touratech catalogue of reinforcement/protection parts on your bike for that weekend ride to the pub.


I think the weight is definitely not the case in terms of stability. Try riding a standard R1200GS and then V-Strom afterwards - you notice also the 1200GS has a noticably better stability than the big Strom while it's lighter by spec and feels a lot lighter when you actually ride it. So it can't be the weight.

I guess horizontally mounted engine (gyroscopic forces?) has something to do with the impression of very good stability on the road (and ditto to all other "grand-tourers" with the same engine mounting, Pan European, Goldwing, Guzzis that just feel bloody well planted on the road when you ride them). Maybe also telelever or frame geometry plays some part with the big GS, but I think it's negligible or even non-existant at steady speeds.

Telelever starts to play its part only if your throttle and braking operation becomes "irratic" (curvy roads, traffic, avoiding potholes etc) and in terms of those conditions, so far I think with 2-up full gear setting the telelever front suspension is really a God-sent system and I find it pityful that others haven't aquired the simple (excluding the expensive side-steered Benellis, Yamaha GTS and other handbuilt $$$-experimental bikes) non-diving suspension technology to stabilize that huge load-transfer of heavy bikes (Hossack's patents BMW-licensed only?) that would make 2-up RTW-ers selection of well handling bikes a lot wider than limited to that one GS. While we've also seen 50cc two-up "doable", we wanted the best bike affordable to us before going on our own RTW, so we tested different bikes to be sure of our choice (yes, times do change, so while on RTW we've tested other bikes as we had a chance just to keep our minds open) and IMHO telelever is a superior system to the regular forks and I haven't found even radically modified forks that give the same steady feeling on a pig-heavy 2-up loaded bike once you start playing around with that weight of the bike. Now before you start knocking, that being said, with a light bike, solo and with a lot less gear, I'd probably prefer well set-up conventional forks since I don't find any really noticable advantage on telelever when riding a light bike solo.

Again, I must stress those are my personal opinions and my personal observations. There is no universal truth out there anyway, so the original poster should make up his own truth from this thread that's already utterly off topic.

Margus