Hi guys (my 1st post),
I've been meaning to come on HUBB fior a while and it's magic, I find a very relevant topic in no time.

I'm starting to have the same dilemma as you KiwiBruce.

I have been riding my Fazer600 for aprox 2 years now and have recently sorted it out for another year after almost putting my name down for a 650 Dakar.

But again, I can't understand why there is such a lack of twin cylinder dual purpose bikes with off-road potential but which will also cruise on a motorway if need be.

Having no off road expereince, I don't want anything too heavy.. I know I'll be riding mostly on road in the Uk still but woul dlike to ride roads like we saw on LWD in Ethiopia last time or up valleys in the Alps without tarmac.. not hard stuff but adventurous for me!

The big BMW's I tried (1150 & 12 GS) were great fun but the weight and size would worry me off road (esp alone), lugagged up. On road and touring, they'd be great!

Yep I know the 800GS will be one, but teething problems and price will be an issue, esp if one wants ANY extras...

I don't know how "long legged" the Xt engine feels but the BMW650 wasn't keen over 80 and I'd say cruising would be about 70-80.. no fun say on a rainy day trying to get back to Northern England from Le Mans in 1 day!


So what is there? a decent smooth single? Hopefully gearing and power improvements on the Tenere (? it'll be the same as the XT though, no doubt)..it looks fab apart from being hindered by lack out blacktop mile-munching prowess, which I'll want to do sometimes.

DR650, KLE650.. other (mainly US) sites have plenty of fans but we don't have these bikes over in the UK now..are they any good..The KTM 640 might do.. and even heard it can sit happily on a straight bit of tarmac all day.. but when will they stop being so cagey about the h690 and how does a newbie cope with a 3500mile service interval when my first tour of trance was already 3000miles!- not good

Transalp, now heavy, and without 21" tyre... (btw does that help lots? particulary for a newbie?)
I wish they'd make a new Super Tenere

The idea of converting a Versys or Wee strom is about as much on the cards as finding a bike of suite, but I don't want to be fettling and modifying bikes..

to be honest, I don't think it's much to ask: a middle-weight v twin (aren't twins better suited to off-road power delivery?), light enough to handle new-commers to dirt, steady enough to carry a tent and comfy/long legged enough to cruise?


PS maybe I'm being too apprehensive, weight might be less of an isuue than I thing and also the 21" wheel thing.. I plan to go on a couple of these off road training days.. need to find a recommended one but that's another topic.

Anyway, KiwiBruce, sorry to ramble on. If you find any suitable bikes ot easy ways to mod more road biased bikes, let me know!
Cheers
Kev

__________________
Go forrit! But..take it easy.
(Fazer)Kev

its a Twin
1 exhaust
Fast on road
capable off road (if your strong as shes a top heavy swine)
but FUN FUN FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your question regarding the front wheel size is a very good one, the size of the front wheel, and the corresponding front suspension set up makes a huge difference to how a bike feels on the road and off road. For example a XT660X with the 17” wheels and relatively stiff front forks is credibly confidence inspiring on the road, the strong front brake helps too, the XT660R with the 21” front wheel and softer forks will handle the rough so much better as the front wheel is larger it will roll over bumps etc much easier than the smaller 17” wheel, the softer suspension helps off road too as it absorbs more of the impact without transferring it into the handle bars the way stiffer suspension does. The XT660R might not be much slower on the road, it just won’t feel as sure footed, conversely the R model will feel much more capable off road, the thinner front tyre will be better in much or loose gravel too. I think it’s about which bike makes you smile the most, I think for me the XT660R would be ideal, it will happily cruise at 80 mph (once you get over the fact that it’s a single and feels like its working hard, in reality it’s bullet proof and will run all day everyday with the throttle wide open) However the X model just looks cooler while the Aprilia had me grinning from ear to ear, (I do love Italian twins). Aprilia have announced a 750 SMV Dorsuduro which is based on the Shiver, it has a smaller fuel tank and is claimed to be lighter, this should add up to an even bigger grin factor. The choice is still as hard as ever, many many people ride and love their XT’s, Trans alps, BMWs etc etc, for me personally BMWs just don’t do it for me, they are unquestionably great bikes just not to my taste, maybe I should ride a new one as it’s quite a few years since I rode one, but then I don’t want to add another piece to an already confusing puzzle. So Kev, it seems to me to be question of where the balance is between on road and off road performance, I know that my next statement will cause some argument but in general singles will be better off road and twins will be more relaxed on road and cover the miles more comfortably. I found riding both the Kawasaki Versys and Yamaha XT660 to be extremely valuable, the Versys won’t be as capable off road but many riders are completely happy with 17” road wheels for adventure use, equally lots of riders do huge road miles on their singles and love ever mile. Making the choice is difficult, buying thebike and racking up the miles is the easy fun bit, modern bikes are just so good it’s almost impossible to get it badly wrong, everything from R1s to postie bikes have been used successfully as adventure bikes. I/m sure others will have good advice and suggestions. Good luck in making your decision.

KiwiBruce, that ws a great post. Thanks buddy

I can understand now the basics of the front wheel size though it is a little counter-intuative for me as I have a road bicycle (large wheel diamter/thin tyres) and a mountain bike (smaller wheels and fatter tyres).

I don't have much experience to go on and that's probably why I'm so uncertain. My only "big" bike is my fazer 600.. in IL4 from Japan. For me a do-everything bike and bril (lucky) first bike.. it commutes, tours, motorways, and goes on the twisties but all on tarmac.

I've had test rides on a a few but only one bike that I now think I ought to consider for an all rounder with off road ability (650Dakar). The 1150 and 1200 are silly choices, I've come to think.
To be honest, I didn't think the handling on the Daker was all that bad but it may have had something to do with not pushing it due to the £1500 excess from teh BMW dealer. I was most struck not by the lack of oomph but 70+mph comfort and jerkyness at low revs/speeds. Therefore my thinking is a twin would be better. But maybe the XT660R handles cruising better and I've heard the engine/gearbox is slick...anyway there's no substitute for trying them though whether I get to try them off road as I intend to use is another matter.
I've tried a Multistrada, a Buell XB12Ss, KaTooM 950SM-R, the big BMWs and the F800S, but not a small v twin... and coming from a 1 big bike history which is different to any single or twin, I think I'd benfit from trying a Wee Strom or Versys as you did.
Having said that, I don't rev that high (don't have to on the fazer) as it's not really neccessary with our speed limits and engien power of even a 600 so I was at home in making the most from the various bikes I've demo'd. I;m not an expereinced rider though and didn't/don't pick up on things that are often mentioned in bike mags or by mates.
EG no fork dive felt natural and I didn't notice it being wierd; slower handling from the raked out front of teh Dakar felt as I expected; I wasn't taken aback by the lack of braking on any of the bikes I've tried... maybe I'm not attentive enough to the basics of motorcycling.. my feelings of the bikes was more biased by cockpit, comfort, engine note, practicality.. and so on.. oh well.
I'd love to try the KaTooM ADV 640/690 but it's just not possible with the numbers they sell.. no demo bikes available.. hmm.

Anyway thanks. Interesting you should think
I would've thought that a straightforward statment and it's how well the rider puts up with a single to make it bearable which is the variable aspect.

Yes, I'll have to proplery decide he road:ratio though no doubt that will change as soon as I start doing it! for now mostly tarmac (am I allowed to say that on this website)

Oh and BTW, even if you are aware and take on board what people say about BMWs being surprisingly good, they will still blow you away when you take one for a test ride but I get what you mean about not adding yet more choices.. I might have to decide before KTM release the 690 ADV!

__________________
Go forrit! But..take it easy.
(Fazer)Kev

ADVKev

Just to give me 2 pennies worth. Ive got a 06 yamaha XT660R (only had it 8weeks) and coming from a honda deauville which is a smooth twin, very much like the transalp once i started riding the XT i found it to be very snatchy on and off the throttle. For a big single its not too bad but can be a hand full at times. Messing around with the fuelling a bit helped but it is still no like a twin.

As for motorway riding many people on the .: XT660.com - The #1 XT660 Resource :. forum say they cruise at 80+mph all day and have not problems. The only thing is the R with its off road tyres dont really like any thing over 80mph as the big knobblies make the bars wiggle a bit and feel a bit wierd.

It is still a great bike, plenty of poke, and can handle its own off road or back roads. The only problems are the seat can be a bit hard after a long day in the seat, the tank will give 120miles before the light comes on at the best, and you need to add a high screen (like i have) to be comfortable on the motorway.

If your still interested or even not sign on to the above forum and it will give you masses of information to look through.

Just an update.
I have been confused and tempted by another bike by a very nice guy in a bike shop. Being bored over the hols, I dragged family to a dealer down near my Dad's in Exeter. They have looads of makes and I was mainyl there to ask when and how much for the new tenere. We chatted and it was cool although not much more than is already out there.
WE discuss other bikes, Transalp, F800 and come down to only one bike that is available now which could match the Tenere.

The Wee strom 650X.

For some reason I'd though it had 17" wheels on but the 19 would be a happy medium for me, a novice adventurer. Surely.
It's v twin would be better than a single for the reasons mentioned above esp on road and at any speed or overtaking.
It's lighter for what it is and the X comes without no ABS, a sturdy (IMHO) bash plate, hand guards that bolt on to the bar ends and a "touring" screen.

The only thing would be ground clearance although I'm sure it's more capable than I am imagining it to be and I've heard one can put long springs or forks on the front and a simple replacement shock on the rear.

I think it'll come down to these two really, not wanting a Katoom now with them not selling and being so cagey on the 690 as well as not oferring test rides and having a very short service interval. The DR's KLR's and Dakar's of this world seem outmoded now and the f800gs will cost too much for me,

Is this a wise bike to consider (the dl650x) along side a purpose built rtw 660 single?
Thank goodness I'm only having to choose between a couple of bikes, I;d be hopeless with a choice like the sportsbikers have!

__________________
Go forrit! But..take it easy.
(Fazer)Kev

So Kev, you've gone full circle a few times I expect and it is now the DL650.
There are quite a few posts in here about that bike and I reckon if you search in here using, say, DL650, Weestrom, Wee Strom and similar you will get some ideas about that Suzi.

The X model is around £5100 from memory, but it may/should be less at this time of year.

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Dave

I have a DL650 traded a F650 for it. The F being a thumper I feel was a little buzzy on the road and the DL is smother. The F is better off road and has better clearance. I have riden the DL 1000 miles (1600 km) in a day (once. I dont like to dam boring ride) The F 600 miles (960km) in a day hurt about the same. For me the DL is the better bike.

As far as twins and off road I think there gust bigger than a thumper. Harder to fit out of the way and get clearance (the DL dint even try). I hope the F800GS make suzuki rethink some of the DL line.

BMW are grate bikes I gust think there over rated and over priced. But the new F650GS is calling to me and a R80GS alwas stops me and makes me look.

Thought I would add my thoughts on my KLE500 twin.
for what its worth the KLE500 is fine on the motorway at 70-80 mph and servicing is at 7500 and 15000 miles also being of the old school design its easy to do your self, only problem I have with mine is tank size / range as to fuel consumption its better than my BMW R80 on a run but I dont know what it will be like with a heavy load. real nice thing about it was the price I only paid 3700 .
Cheers John

Back to the original question: the new F650GS fits here, and it is competitively priced by BMW standards i.e. similar to its predecessor in price while offering the Rotax twin engine with 71 HP in lieu of the 50 or so HP of the single. There does not seem to be too much discussion about this bike compared with the 800GS version going for bigger bucks.

This has been an interesting thread so far; I sense that the discussion may be swinging toward the age-old one of how much onroad Vs offroad riding the bike is required to do (and what is offroad anyway?).

Happy New 2008!

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Dave

That recommended service interval is interesting and different from the more usual every 4000 miles of many other Jap machines - I guess it is because of the state of tune of that engine?
I see that the Versys is also named, in the UK anyway, as a "KLE" (KLE650).
I have kind of wondered if they would produce a more direct replacement for the KLE500 to meet the Euro3 regs etc etc - something with a higher exhaust instead of the under-slung road silencer - maybe not?

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Dave

Then there is the Yam TDM for sale brand new still; on UK ebay they are being offered (it's the time of year for offers) at £5000.
That is a lot of bike for such money - yes, it is a road going tourer but some of the Yam dealers refer to it as an "Adventurer". You have to love those marketing people!!

When will Yam produce a new Super Tenere now that the XT660Z is on the market for 2008?

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Dave

Well that's the answer then! Just re-read this post, and I am in the same boat - a few very different bikes for different purposes.
Some with spokes, some with solid wheels.

"A bit on the slow side" - this is always a conundrum for me; if I am hooking on at much above 80 MPH then I am in some danger of being picked up for speeding (even when cars are passing me at faster speeds!) - that is a likelyhood in the UK nowadays.
So at what speed do I want to put in the miles on the tarmac? - the F650GS single can hold 80 MPH all day long and still return 70 MPG with 200 miles covered before refueling. 200 miles from about 16 litres.
So could my "old technology" Yam 900cc Diversion inline 4 cyl shaft drive, but the fuel economy was not as good and it cruised at around 85 MPH without significant wind blast (the F650 has some of the latter above, say, 75 MPH). About 200 miles using about 20 litres of fuel.

Horses for courses.

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Dave

wow long time.. I'm revisiting this and will give you rreplies a better read again when I have more time but in the meantime my girlfirend has been convinced she loves bikes.
I'm told that no Teneres are available as test rides.. soo... hmm test a xt660r purely for the engine?

Vstrom650X seems nice and about the same price as the tenere plus until July (dammit I wanted to get it after the summer) a garmin Zumo for £99 at UK Suzi dealers!

The best would be the f800gs but at £1500 in basic trim and not yet a proven bike.. I'm doubt plus I bet I cannot use my Givi cases with the bmw!

Other options for 2 up riding?? I'm finding my fazer 600 absolutley fine for power.. its whne a traffic light turns red and I have to pull on the anchors, the fron dives like a hungry pelican! and that's with Ohlins fork spring upgrade and ohlins rear shocker too.. oh nad braided lines.
But for speed, I know I'd be happy on a BMW650 ish engine if it had 10 mph more smooth after 80, but overtakes at national speed limit and stablity 2 up on 85mph motorway starches .. I'm not so sure 650-660 singles will do it? apart from the KTM which who know when is coming and will be offroad focussed..

Which brings me onto the vstrom 650 argument.. will stock suspenion be able to comfortably hand 2 up plus luggage? I reckon most riding still will be 2 up no load or single, but as with my Scotland hol next month, I'm meering up with my girl for a few days 2 up riding...

other options? TDM? surely not capable enough for even dirt/gravel roads? power would be spot on mind..
I've also been realising that I'll want an mpg like my fazer (65mpg) with current prices! so that'll be tough and underseat storage too like the cavern I have ATM..
maybe I'll put a high fender and tourance tyres on the fazer!

__________________
Go forrit! But..take it easy.
(Fazer)Kev

Well, take a look at Pecha72's posts about his DL650 performance while getting to Oz.
Now a well-proven bike, after years on the market without modification (but is it due to get some?).

Yam: reported to be bringing out a Super Tenere in 2009, with a 1200cc engine to compete with the Beemers. I guess this will replace the TDM.

F800GS: the dark horse is the new twin cyl F650GS.

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Dave