for serious offroad, I think its too heavy. A KLR or DR650 would be much better. I think even the "newer" Africa Twin (RD07, 1993 onwards) could be better, with its 21´ front wheel. But whether its a DL or Africa Twin, surely you would need big muscle to take a 200kg bike to any real bad places, and1-cylinder bikes with 50 or so kilos less weight would have a huge advantage.

I dont think the Africa Twin is a poser bike, it is very, very capable and lots of long trips done with them. Totally bulletproof, too.

Havent crashed a DL650, but Ive disassembled the fairing, and it looks like theres some expensive plastics to be harmed, almost like a streetbike. With crashbars you should be able to get away with minor spills. A bashplate is essential, too, as it could do with some more ground clearance.

But it is a grrreat all-rounder, and if your going on a long trip, you´ll appreciate the comfort, too, and thats where it kicks ass. The engine is a jewel compared to anything in this class, and very reliable, too. And it does not vibrate like some journalists claimed, dont know if they were on drugs, or where they got that from. Mine runs very smoothly, and so do all other DL´s Ive ridden.

If BMW get it right with their 800GS, that could be worth checking out as well.

haolejoe,
You have probably read the thread in here about what bikes may be coming along next year; as quoted here, the Beemer 800GS may be worth waiting for, if you can manage that! However, that bike will seriously test your budget!!!

The record of the AT shows that it is not a poser bike but it could certainly do with losing some weight (which bike could not?). The whole of the Honda range in the dual sport arena is well overdue for a "makeover" - lots of people in Europe would love to see a new AT but ........

Personally, I like the specs and the look of the Wee-Strom; the limitations are well discussed in another thread that Mollydog started some time ago - lack of ground clearance, a tad over-weight, exhaust pipes not well positioned etc. but what bike is perfect (maybe next years models!!)?

Your questions and discussion still come down to the choice between single or twin it seems to me - that is where the new BMW may score, bringing another parallel twin contender to the market.
In the meantime, have you read into the posts/threads about the Kawasaki KLE? It is an under-rated bike IMO (may not even be available in the US?). A parallel twin at 500cc with a very good price tag.

Sorry not to address your specific question about the DL650 off-road; no one will lend me one to find out those answers!

__________________
Dave

It seems from reading the threads that a 650 with a 21 inch front wheel that was set up like a KLR or Dakar or DR with a twin would meet quite a few peoples needs in the states. I don't know why Honda has been so behind the rest in the states - must have to do with emissions or some other Federal regulation.

I agree with the ground clearance and placement of the exhaust on the v-strom - doesn't seem right. The new Ulysses by Buell is the same way.

I hear good reports on the 08 KLR that the vibration has been dramatically reduced over the previous models. A friend of mine has one that rode it from here in Northern Arizona down to Puerto Penasco (aka Rocky Point) and said he was beat up by the time he got there. From what I gather that is where a bike like the AT would be highly desireable in the states.

Is there any truth to the quote on the KLR vs Dakar thread on the Dakar feeling more like a twin?

Thanks for the posts!

If you can get a test ride or borrow a 650GS then it is well worth riding: my wife has the 05 model (not the Dakar), which has a very easy life by the way with road riding only, and it is the smoothest single I know of - I have done a 250 mile day of riding it with no problems other than a slightly sore backend (both the bike and the saddle are lowered for her) - typical of any bike after hours in the saddle. It cruises easily around 80 mph with a claimed top speed of around 110 mph and it always returns 70 mpg no matter how much the throttle is twisted. I am waiting to see how the new KTM 690 engine compares (reputedly very smooth in the supermoto bike).

Hope this helps (I still go around in circles about the next bike to own!).

As for Honda, they have rather lost their way IMO at present - more concerned with getting higher technology products like VTEC on the market.

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Dave

Did you look at these bikes?
(Another one that I want to ride)


http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...e-pics-25296-2

It is rumoured that this bike will be replaced next year with a 650cc \\ twin.
A trail version of this:-
Kawasaki Versys - Specifications
Kawasaki Versys - Features

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Dave

Exactly. If you're doing mostly ON road then the DL or AT would be fine. As soon as you start getting into knarly dirt....these big bikes are a challenge...even for experience dirt riders. I put 50,000 miles on my '02 DL1000 with plenty of it off road. We made it...but not always easy.

Bottom line is, if dirt is in the mix then a single is the way to go, IMO. I have a
DR650 which has worked out really well both on and off road. Ticks alot of the
right boxes for me.

Perhaps my choice of words is wrong here. Poser really refers more to riders than bikes. But with the paint job of the bike and the look of it,
it is sort of represented as a Dakar dirt bike. Not even close to this. Too heavy. End of story.

I never rode the Africa Twin off road...just on a short 1/2 hour test ride around Oxford. A gutless wonder...with the DL650 giving about 20 more HP easy.

I'm no expert on the Africa Twin....but I can read a spec chart regards weight, HP, and the fact the design is 20 years old. Believe it or not....technology has moved forward since the late 80's when the AT came along. For that era the AT was awesome...but time marches on. Could any sport bike from the 80's even come near a modern sport bike? Same thing
with Enduros.

Yes, it is a street bike basically. You should have seen the look on Japanese guys from Suzuki when I told them where I had taken my Vstrom! Now that was funny! Crash bars only help some...won't protect all that well...things will get broken if you fall a lot. (I was lucky)

DL's definitely need more ground clearance....as you say...bashplate is essential! If it just had 3 inches more clearance, would make a big difference.

My new Vstrom will only see pavement...and only dirt when there is no other option. My DR650 is now my main travel bike.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Theres a big difference in frame design between the 1992 and 1993 models. The former one is very top-heavy, but the latter is still not so bad, it is actually a very well balanced-bike, and definitely feels lighter than its weight would suggest. To be honest, I havent done much offroad with my DL, but in fact I wouldnt be so surprised, if the AT is still better off-road than a DL. It is one of the very few machines in this weight category that I would maybe consider taking to some very bad places (if I wouldnt have a better choice, that is!)

In Finland we have plenty of gravel-roads, in very different condition especially after winter, and for all these the DL is normally an excellent choice. When there is some "road" to speak of, then it can do it no problem. But for anything worse than that, to go on paths or trails, then I think it will show its limitations.

Why Honda have not updated the Africa Twin ever since (except minor tweaks which do not count) is beyond me. The Transalp is seriously old, and Varadero is a streetbike, not really a substitute.

Well so far here is what I see as the 650 twins for dualsport/adventure riding being offered to the US market:

Kawasaki - new Versys $6,899 msrp. just saw it this morning. - 400lbs
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/det...t=introduction

BTW - it looks like they dropped the msrp for the 08 KLR from $6,200 USD to around $5,400. great deal seeing how you can't buy a used Dakar for less.

Suzuki - V-strom - 427lbs

I bow to your experience since you owned the A/T and can compare with your Vstrom. And.... since the Finn's are consistently some of the best off road riders in the world I figure you know your stuff.

I never thought my DL1000 would make it in some of the places I rode in Mexico. But once I got used to riding it off road, I was pleased to see just how well it did. You do have to be careful with ground clearance and deep sand is out of the question. Don't go there...you can never get out.
But overall the Vstorm is extremely TOUGH! It doesn't look it...but it is very
strong and tough as Hell...trust me...I tested it very well!

Example: very slow going, picking my way through a steep up hill boulder field.
Bowling Ball sized rocks and bigger, very steep uphill....the Vstrom just chugged up at 1500 rpm, lugging at 10km to 20km per hour. I thought sure it
would stall....but it did not stall, it just climbed the hill and allowed me to weave back and forth to miss the rocks and pick the best line (tire pressure at 20/22) with very little clutch use. The R12GS and Tiger were slipping clutches the whole way. I hardly touched the clutch, just gentle throttle. Very controlable. Almost like Trials riding a monster.

Example Two: Deep silt. In far reaches off Sierra Madre (south of Copper Canyon) logging area. This type of dirt is very strange to ride in. 1 ft. to 2 ft. deep silt that is just like Flour. Except it's brown. The huge logging trucks and
CATS make it. Horrible destruction of the forest.

You pass through it and it splashes up onto the bike creating a "Wake" like a
boat through water. The silt dirt hides every rock or hole or rut. Once I relaxed and just let the Vstrom find its way....it was no problem and tracked flawlessly through the deep flour.

Example Three: Fire Roads. With pressure lowered the Strom can be flat tracked (Speedway in EU) quite nicely if not conservatively. Add knobbies
and front end security is quite good for a big bike.

I agree. I would not go looking to find technical off road on a Vstrom. But "some road to speak of" is right.

Folks have been predicting an "All New" Africa Twin for years now. Yet Honda continues to mystify everyone in the industry by doing exactly nothing. Their conservatism throughout the model range has hurt sales in some market niches, but they still sell a LOT of bikes.

They make a fortune off the Gold Wing. Also they do well with the small dirt bikes like the XR150 & XR230 at least here in the USA. Dirt bikes and motocrossers sell well and sport bikes of course. But dual sport/adventure bikes basically have been ignored for nearly 20 years. The XR650-L is the only dual sport bike in the range and has not been up dated since it's introduction in 1993. I never considered the Transalp a dual sport bike at all.

And now, Honda have discontinued the XR650R (off road only bike) the King of Baja. The CRF450X and CRF250X are now their only factory bikes entered.

I was hoping a "new" Africa Twin would use the RC51 1000cc V-twin motor. Build a stronger, larger version of the CRF450X Alu. chassis and build in some comfort with more width and a really good seat.

Add top shelf Showa suspension, super strong wheels (tubeless would be best) with only a minimum of additional street ammenities. Have at least 8 inches of ground clearance, with 8 to 10 inches of suspension travel. Gear it low. Use the latest updated F.I. systems, big tank (24 liters or so), wide footpegs, full Titanium exhaust, Aluminum / Titanium everywhere that is possible or practical, like subframes, brackets, bolts. To hell with the cost.
But it must be super strong too.

The RC51 engine is a jewel. Very lightweight, puts out over 100 hp at the rear wheel, tons of torque, reliable and could be de-tuned to be economical with fuel and even more understressed for long life.

Actual dry weight should be around 390 to 410 lbs. Not a motorcrosser but a bike that would be a fantastic RTW bike in my estimation and could handle off road better than any other big bike. Is Honda listening?

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Thanks to all for the info and links on the v-strom. It has given me much to consider.

Mollydog - you mentioned that your travel bike would be the DR. Would you take that to Copper Canyon? and Beyond? I've been wanting to go down there for the past 10 years or so. Also a trip down to the tip of Baja and back are also on the list.

I'm thinking of taking a bit of your advice and buying a single, but in a 650, to go out and ride, ride, ride and learn more about two wheeling, crashing, riding etc. I know I could get into a 650 single for a lot less than a v-strom and could buy accessories that could be transfered (e.g. painners, gps, etc). Then in few years, maybe, I could by the twin I really want with a 21 inch front wheel. The reason I say 650 and not something smaller is the trail my friends and I did yesterday. I was in my landcruiser (took two of my 3 kids and dog to let my wife have a relaxing day) with some friends on motorcycles. One on a XR400R and the other on a DR650. We ended up trailing for 100 miles and had lunch at the trailhead to Havasupai. We headed paved roads and Highway 40 home. Anything smaller that a 650 with a good tank would have made the trip impossible. (We had to fuel up the 400R)

One positive of bying a KLR for me would be that two of my friends have them and if/when we take a trip all the parts would be shareable.

I've been to Copper Canyon four times, 3 times on bikes, two of those on my
DL1000 Vstrom. CC is mostly light duty dirt roads. There are a few tougher routes heading from Batopilas West to El Fuerte and the coast but none would worry the DR650. A lot depends on some river crossings and time of year one goes. October is best, IMO.

A Vstrom could make two out of the three choices out of the canyon with a good rider on board. NOTE: Much of CC can be done in a car. (or a Jeep!)
But you can get into trouble if you look for it!

A 650 single is a bit big/heavy to start with for technical dirt riding. Best to start on a smaller bike, IMO. An XR250 would be a good choice or any number of other smaller dirt bikes. After 50 hours riding on the 250 you can move up.

A DRZ400S is a good mid range choice. With the right comfort changes and gearing it would do fine on a Copper Canyon trip...or RTW really. You just go a bit slower on the highway. Cruises nicely at 65 mph. A DRZ will be much easier in the dirt sections than either a DR650 or any twin.

But for learning locally in the dirt, get a 250 and go desert riding. For CC travel the DR is ideal. You can do it easy on a twin too, but more technical stuff will put an inexperienced rider on a big twin on their head and destroy their bike. For this reason, a single is a fair compromise between weight and comfort and ease of use.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Sorry to disappoint, Patrick, but Im 99% street rider, been riding bikes for 14 years now, but I admit I may not really have a clue what the hell Im talking about here..!! There are some Finnish offroad-experts, but Im not one of them.

Probably many with a passion for this kind of bikes will agree that Honda should make a new, more powerful and perhaps even lighter Africa Twin, and they even have the engine basically ready. Sure, developing new models does cost a fortune, but still its an opportunity wasted. A bit like why Suzuki hasnt made a big touring bike like the FJR, based on the Hayabusa. Well, over at internet forums, we always know everything better than the factories themselves, dont we!!

Its good to hear you´ve taken the Vstrom into some tough places, and still rate it high.. I´ll be starting off from Europe to India with it (650) in about 5 weeks time, so I guess soon Im about to find out about its capability, too!

I will come to this from a different angle, Do you plan to ride solo or with a passenger (pillion)?

I had Transalp of 1998, very capable off road as well. Not a desert racer (neither I am) but you can go over dirt roads mountain trails etcc with ease.
But since you are in US you will have difficult time to find one. David who found a good example made a world tour starting from California. Yes his was a 16 year old bike stil held through Europe, Asia and back home.

Africa twin is discontinued even in Europe. The exhaust emission codes killed it.
Great bike to carry lots a load in any terrain even with a low octain fuel. I have friends who travelled to tibet with 15 year and 60.000miles old Africa Twins.
But they are done.. Themanufacturers do not invest on the segment anymore...
(Excepy KTM but that is another story).

I have switched to DL1000 after TA. WHy? I needed a bike to carry long distance long hours, with 2 people and loaded as much as possible. NOw this bike does that greatly. TA was a bit underpowerede for 2 with luggage (whihc is a very personal opinion). DL1000 can also go dirt roads but it depends on the riders capability. You have 90HP at the backwheel. Not like the tA which had almost 50. SO you have to know how manage the beast. (Same applies to most of the 1litre enduros). The choice of tires is crucial here. Original tires and Tourance handle OK on dirt as well. But my third set will be Pirelli MT90 which is knoblier.

Result after 4 years of ownership, great bike with lots of potential. Wİth decent tires you can discover a lot. And the engine after 6500rpm is very very wild. Not too mention is very reliable over all. Starts all of the time.

If I were you I would define as much as possible what do you plan to do with the bike?

Regards

Burak
DL1000, 2003

Your quest is to find a two wheeled Bike equivalent of a series 80 Landcruiser?

So its max speed (including off a cliff) should be sub 120kmh, it should be capable of being driven to and then hammered all over a quarry. But would avoid a motoway like the plague.

A bike that you dont actually mind dropping, in facts thats probably its description.

Oh and its also got to carry your best mate and an overnight bag with room for a 375, and lastly when you really open her up, there should be smoke pouring out the rear!

Sounds to me like you need an old Yamaha XL600LMF, but certainly not a new bike.