Back to market forces here IMHO. The overlanders won't buy the extended warranty, or the bi-monthly service, or bring back a 2000 mile bike in 18 months to sell or a lot of the other things the manufacturers like. The Charlies shop more, break less inside the warranty period and want to be seen down at Starbucks on a bike that's bigger and shinier than their special friends.


In 1975 my Dad went to the dealers with a list that included things like not buying petrol on the way home from work more than once a week that were directly transferable to touring. He rated 100 mph performance as a equal to higher insurance costs and would have bought the 250 over the 350 if the dealer had had one in. A different market in different times.


There is hope, the Chinese market still includes the mid-weight class and our petrol prices are pushing range as a selling point. (Which back on topic is another weight factor, 42 litre tank = average 20 kg, 12 litre tank = average 6 kg, but which gives the bigger range? you need the MPG figure as well and might even choose not to fill the big tank).


Andy

and that's what I'm talking about:



who needs bigger bike for adventure.

Bigger blokes

In that clip, that bike is perfectly proportioned to her. My wife has one, and I sit on the carrier when I try to ride it. Forget about standing up, as I have to fold myself double to reach the handle bars.


IMO- power to mass ratio is much more important than weight. but the lighter it is, the easier it'll be in the rough stuff...

__________________
Squily

Of course the lighter the better, but also for me there is a clear MAX. That is where I can pick up the bike myself more than once in sub-optimal conditions w/o hurting myself. This may be somewhat biased by my riding style , but it is a requirement. Way too many opportunities to get stuck by yourself halfway down a slope a long way from help to have a bike that you can't move around with.

Somewhat my take on the choosing the bike for the "worst" you are going to ride, not what you are going to ride the most of. (I might tend to call it the "Best" but that depends on the bike you are riding, and how heavy it is!)

Prime reason to take a bike is to go where you really can't go with more normal transport. If I really just wanted to go easy places, I'd take the bus and not have all the worry and expense of my own transportation. I want to be able to take that dirt road into that hidden green valley that I saw out the dirty window while stuck on the bus with the goat in my lap.

But it IS amazing where Buses get to. I've been aboard Buses climbing up deeply rutted and rocky muddy nightmare dirt "roads" (liberal use of "road" here).

Small, dual wheel Bluebird Bus used super-low "Granny" gear all the way up at 3 mph whilst the Aymara women chanted incantations to themselves. Few passenger cars could make that bit, but the Buses did.

These scenario played out numerous times from Mexico to Bolivia. It took FOREVER to pass these rough sections ... on a nice light enduro bike you could blast through easy ... or on a 100cc step though!

Loose rocks, ruts and mud are what may cause riders most grief. A big, heavy, overloaded bike might struggle unless the Pilot knew his Onions well.

The answer to traveling on a bike you can't pick up solo is ... don't travel solo! Pick up a couple STRONG, YOUNG Riding buddies to help out. Also be cautious about where you go. (impossible to always know conditions)
Yes, sometimes you might have to turn round and take the pavement ... especially if solo and unsure of road conditions. No loss of honor there.


Here ... my younger (20 years younger), stronger A Enduro rider friend rides my XR250R up a steep loose grade in Baja. The pic does not do justice to just HOW steep/knarly this bit is. Another A rider buddy rode me double UP THIS on his WR450. I was stunned he could do it with my fat ass on the back starting mid hill from dead stop. SKILL.

My XR250R had seized earlier in the ride, freed up and ran but was down on power. I got to ride my buddies WR450 the rest of that days ride. WOW! Lighter than my XR and double the HP! No more problems! (yea, right)


We had to stop our friend here from attempting pick up his loaded GS1200 solo. 3 of us lifted it up 5 times this day. We had got lost in a very remote area of the Sierra Tarahumaru near Mexico's Copper Canyon. Deep Bull Dust caused the falls for this novice off road rider. No damaged backs on this trip ... but nearly did.

I just watched Long Way Round about that RWT on big GS1200 bikes and
guess what, conclusion was they're too big and too heavy for the purpose.
In addition one of the GS frame has broken, crack in two places....
260kg plus luggage that's nuts even in light offroad.

That is true. And the gazing over the side, front and rear bumper scraping the wall and rocks crumbling away on the downhill side, beautiful river 800 feet down to the river below and seeing the bus from last year's rainy season down there...

(Petunia on the way down to Death Valley...)





But the real problem it is hard to get a fully loaded bus to just turn down that road that you see. You have to know in advance, find the right bus, get the schedule, etc. And you don't know that road is there until you drive by it on the bus!!

Truth is, I fall down a lot. And I tend to ride alone.

Sounds like you've made the ride down the Death Road in Bolivia. Scariest bus I ever made. Now there is a new paved road, buses no longer use the old dirt road apparently. BTW, the drop off at highest point is 2000 ft.

Both KTM's are awesome bikes. If one has the money and can afford to put money into fitting them for travel, then all good. Maintenance and reliability still a question on both. Most successful KTM RTW guys are pretty good mechanics. I think you have to be to make it on a KTM. Conversely we see Noobs aboard $500 Chinese bikes getting out there with zero bike experience. Sort of gets back to why you travel and what priorities one has. If you need a fast, sporty bike everyday on your ride to make you smile .. all good. I prefer something less exciting but more utilitarian, without the
large initial cash outlay. But's it's all good if you're having fun!

Hard to argue with those points. I can guarantee the smile part if you're talking about doing nasty mud, rocks or knarly off road riding. A well set up 250 is certainly easier to manage for most "average" riders.

That CRF Honda certainly could be The One. I wonder if it will turn out to be as reliable long term as the KLX250S and WR250R? Certainly is popular and the aftermarket is already on board with lots of good extras for that bike. I think a good seat would be paramount to comfort. Wider is the key. Enduro seats are too narrow. More foam is only a half measure, a professionally designed seat really makes a difference when in the saddle 10 hours a day, day after day.
The BIG positive for the 250 class is fuel economy. Getting out to remote areas really requires good range. We've all struggled with this. That little CRF Honda seems to "make gas"!

Optimal weight? As light as possible.

That is the short glib answer but the useful answer is this one:

- highest weight you can still lift by yourself.

Frankly, I don't know what that is for myself even. I was able to lift my loaded DR650SE and I was able to lift my unloaded KTM 990 but can I lift a KTM 1190 Adventure R with hard panniers, the option I am considering next? I don't know..

A little off-topic but are there any aids for lifting bikes? Jacks? Harnesses? That might change the answer to this as well...

You mean right off the ground? If you can do that with a DR650 nevermind a KTM 1150 you're in a different league to me. What do they feed you on in the US?

Or do you mean pick it up when it falls over. Usually the adrenaline rush that follows dropping it helps but you pay for it the next day when overstrained bits start hurting. I'll admit that a GoldWing that had upended itself on an alpine pass was beyond me though. It took two others to do that one.

The below video makes it look easy ... and it's true, a BMW Boxer is easier as cylinders rest on the ground, so bike is not flat on the ground. In mud or sand, this technique does not work so well.

A BMW is much easier to lift ... but a bike with panniers is easier too as panniers keep bike UP a bit, easier for you to get under it and get it up right.

With a loaded KTM 1190 first thing to do is get help if you can. Then take off as much luggage as possible.

I've lifted a fallen KTM 950 with just a tail pack on it. It was pinning the fallen rider ... so I had to lift it solo. He was screaming in agony so my adrenalin was pumping ... NOT GOOD. (This is when guys ruin their back for life)

I was lucky. I got it up enough so he could crawl out from under it ... then the two of us hoisted it up right. A real BITCH! This was on loose desert sandy dirt. But the KTM lays down very flat ... it's hard to get the lift started using the technique shown in video below. I tried backing into it ... could not do it ... my feet just slipped as I tried to push. Also, no good hand holds on the bike.

If fallen on a hill and you don't care about scratching up your bike, try spinning the bike round so that you can lift it up from the UP HILL side ... but once put up right the common disaster is the bike topples over the other side ... and tumbles on down the hill.
Been there, done that.

BMW bike lifting video - Yahoo Search Results

Evermore,
I remember your ride report on ADV Rider from S. America. Great stuff.
Would you really trust a KTM vs. your DR650 in Bolivia or Mongolia? Did you ever have problems with your DR650 in S. America?

I've owned 3 KTM's ... still have my DR650 at 55,000 miles and counting.

Thanks! Well the DR650SE had 2 shortcomings for me, underpowered at altitude (altiplano from Cusco to Arequipa) and the darn carb stranding me a couple times. A KTM 1190 R would obviously fix those issues but be heavier and more complex. Having owned a 990, I am fine with the extra weight except that I don't know if I can lift one by myself in the likely spots where I might drop it (dirt/gravel).

I am frankly not too worried about breaking down and parts availability.This is an issue if you're traveling under time pressure and a 2-3 weeks waiting for a part to arrive would kill your trip. The DR would then be the better choice. I am thinking of a multi-year trip with no deadline. The KTMs are more complex but I don't think there is any issue I can't ultimately fix save a catastrophic crash.

The lifting issue remains. A system that gets the bike off the ground and maybe to a 30-50 degree angle is all that would be required. A lightweight mechanical jack would do it but I don't see any product like that out there. All the jacks I see are designed to lift cars or industrial loads so multiple ton loads. To help lift a bike, all you'd need is 1t jack but it would have to be lightweight. Some sort of tripod system using ratchet tie down to lift could be another possibility. Who knows, maybe I can figure out a reasonable solution and start selling it

Funny! I rode that route in
1974 on a borrowed Vespa 150 (2 stroke!). I had flats!

All motors lose power up high, the DR is badly affected. I'm amazed at those on 125's and 250's riding 14K ft. If the DR is properly leaned out and breathing properly (fully open air box) this helps a little. But power is still affected but at least starts and runs OK if leaned out and breathing well. I tested my set up here:

Imogene pass, Colorado. My Blue DR on left. 13K ft. We rode 6 passes in 2 days. Some went even higher.

CARB
Parts in the DR Mikuni carb simply wear out. I've re-done mine 3 times in 55,000 miles. HUGE difference with new parts. I buy used carbs on line and cannibalize parts needed. Cheap, easy & parts easy to carry on the road.
The KTM is quite light weight for a big bike, best out there!

But still ... well over 500 lbs. ... now add 50 to 100 lbs. of gear and extras! YIKES! I guess if you can bench press over 300 lbs. you might do it. I'm weaker now, don't have the strength I once did. I can still lift my DR.
I agree. Also, seems KTM dealers are popping up all over the world, Latin America have several. You have to wait for parts no matter the brand. No dealers stock anything these days. Most ALL OEM parts must be ordered.

Maybe a couple of adjustable, lightweight prop stands? If you could hoist the bike up just a bit, then somehow get a stand in, under the bike, then take it up in stages? Dunno? Tough problem.

It didn't help that I had a HUGE windscreen and a strong headwind. I just figure if you get a bike with a high enough power to total weight ratio, it won't matter what the altitude is

I am hoping that either the rumored KTM 1050 or new Honda Africa Twin shave off enough weight (50 lb) to make them worthwhile. What's the point of a Triumph 800xc if it weighs the same as the much more powerful 1190 after all?

As for lifting, someone on advrider pointed out this bikehoist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzecbg5-KEY
My thinking is to try to keep the weight low enough that I can still lift it but maybe have something like along for peace of mind.

Molly,

I`m with a 250 as you might know. Over 3,500m I had pretty alarming spluttering issues, kinda felt like engine would die momentarily and then kick back into action, as though someone grabbed the clutch in for a second. Should I take the air filter out or anything else one can do to get more power at altitude? Sorry bit off topic I know!