OK, I am almost there. Flipflopped a bit as expected the more I read about all these options. After more considertion I eliminated the DRX400. Mostly because I agree with Fern....riding with pillion and bags on that bike is just too much to ask of it. I rode pillion and luggage on much smaller bikes all over the world in S. America and Asia, but always on shitty roads with heavy traffic that wouldnt have made me feel comfortable going above 80kph even if the little machine under me could do it.

The reality is I will be riding with a pillion quite often. And although I will likely end up in Africa/and or Asia with this bike at some point, I will also be doing plenty of highway commutes to nature areas in Europe. I think it would probably hold up, but like I said, its a lot to ask of it.

Also I realize the DR650 is just much more practical in general for the road. Sure Ill be taking it offroad, but not all the time and when I do I am not the type to rip around much.

So I focused more on comparing the pros and cons of a CB500X with a RR kit and a DR650. Both can be found used and cheap here.

And I am gravitating more towards the DR650. Here's my main reasons:

The biggest is weight. CB is a full 30 kilos heavier. And I am TINY. 1.73 meters weighing in at a whopping 53kilos (that's 5'8" 120 pounds!). So weight really matters (Its really the main thing that made me want to ditch my Triumph Scrambler in the first place).

Next is the carburated engine. I know I initially stated that fuel consumption was important to me, but the more I think about it the more I feel its also important not to be stuck in the Pamirs with some FI problem I have no idea how to tinker with.

I think what I really want is something in between the DRZ400 and the DR650...that is not fuel injected and weighs in around 155kilos. Suitable for a pillion, good off road but better on and all the other stuff I have stated I am looking for.

For now Im thinking the DR650 is not exactly what Im looking for, but it comes pretty close.

I don't know where you are hoping to purchase the bike but DR650s are very rare in Europe. I don't think they were ever sold here.

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https://fernsforays.wordpress.com/

You are right, there is not a plethora here, but they seem to be around. Here are two I found for example:

a 93' model with 18,000 kilometers on it
https://www.milanuncios.com/motos-de...-253443212.htm

And a 96' model with 15,000 on it
https://www.milanuncios.com/motos-de...-257692960.htm

Which raises another question (I dont have much experience buying older bikes). How many kilometers would a bike need to have on it before you would overlook it as an option? And if the kilommters are low, but its just an old bike (like these ones...over 20 years), does the age really matter so much?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-DR...QAAOSw7UJbIYkK

I've seen DR650s doing 100,000kms+ in Australia NZ and USA before having to do anything like engine rebuilds. The thing I would be concerned about is the good alround condition. Bikes can sit doing nothing for years and things start to perish like carb rubbers and wiring looms. The wiring loom on my 2005 DRZ400 needs totally replacing, and my TT600RE 2004 bike the wiring loom is starting to crumble.

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https://fernsforays.wordpress.com/

I agree with Fern - the DR650 is a great old-school trail/travel bike, but hard to find in Europe.

With regard to your concerns about the CB500X - as you know, I have a lot of experience with those bikes, and there are dozens of Rally-Raid customers [and even riders on more standard machines] who have ridden all over the world on them - including the UK to India, the length of Africa, all-round South America - they are ultra reliable and don't break down.

With the greatest of respect, the EFi vs carburettor argument in general is bollocks (as we like to say in the UK ;o) - modern EFi is just like electronic ignition and any other electrical system on a motorbike. In addition, a pressurised fuel system and filter means a fuel injector is even less likely to get blocked that a carb jet. Honestly, it is not even worth a second thought these days.

The CB500X does weigh more than a DR650 it's true - but that is because it is a far more substantial bike, with a physically larger engine and ancillaries, and a proper subframe, comfortable seat (for two people), 17.5 litre fuel tank and a fairing/screen plus decent lights etc.

Add all that lot to your DR and you'll have a bike very similar in weight, but which is more top heavy, produces less power and uses more fuel.

I think you need to ride a CB500X before you make your mind up - I guarantee you'll be impressed by the way it handles, and how light it feels (all the weight is very low and centralised between your knees).

There is a reason John and I developed the Rally-Raid Adventure kit around that particular platform, and that is because Honda got so many of the key requirements for a genuine long-distance all-terrain travel bike right with it... It's true they cut corners with some of the running gear to keep the price down to a budget level - so we just gave it the better suspension and wheels we felt it deserved.



In fact I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest it* is going to be better than any single cylinder d/s bike on the road, and better than any other twin cylinder ADV bike off-road.

*I'm talking about the LEVEL 2 Rally-Raid kitted bikes of course.


But hey, I also completely understand the attraction of a simpler, old-school bike too (I still love my XR400R for exactly those reasons), so if you can find a DR650 try and take one for a ride too before you make your mind up.

I just guarantee your passenger will prefer the Honda... as will you ;o)

Jx

Hee hee - if it ever comes, I'm confident it will be a 471L, with a T in the name too.

But that is unlikely to ever happen until the sales of the Africa Twin start to drop off significantly... it would be too real-world close.

Jx

Beware, you don't want the 93 model. You want the 96+ one (type SP46).
The newer model is lighter and has far more aftermarket support.

Well that's not really accurate. The CB500X being a twin, it spins faster and outputs indeed a wee more horsepower. But the DR650 being a 650, it's more torquey.

There is some good discourse herein.


If you want torque and old school technology then you need to look to the Suzuki DR750/800cc "BIG" single cylinder. Now, that's a single!!


Torque is far more to do with the stroke of the engine, a classic feature of 600+cc singles, than it is related to the overall engine capacity.


The point made earlier about FI is completely right: that discussion was made at length in here years ago - the argument is over.
That does not mean that one can't have a preference for carbs (two of my current 3 bikes are carb'ed) but it does mean that the FI technology is proven.



Finally, your pillion passenger needs priority consideration, as a minimum.
I have known bike passengers throw in the towel and walk away from a ride because of the self-centred person at the front of the bike.

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Dave

Actually, in a first approximation, torque is proportional to engine capacity.
A good first guess is 10 Nm / 100 cc for regular 4-stroke engines not turbocharged.
A bit more than the above figure for power-optimized engines, a bit less for quieter engines.

Examples:
CRF1000L 98 Nm 9.8 Nm/100cc
Versys 650 64 Nm 9.8 Nm/100cc
WR450F 49 Nm 10.9 Nm/100cc
Multistrada 1260 129 Nm 10.2 Nm/100cc
Hayabusa 154 Nm 11.5 Nm/100cc
BMW R1200GS 125 Nm 10.7 Nm/100cc
Triumph Street 675 68 Nm 10.1 Nm/100cc

Now if you take older/quieter engines
CRF250L 22 Nm 8.8 Nm/100cc
CB500X 43 Nm 8.6 Nm/100cc
GSX750 66 Nm 8.8 Nm/100cc
DR650 54 Nm 8.3 Nm/100cc
HD 883 68 Nm 7.7 Nm/100cc
KLX150 11.3 Nm 7.8 Nm/100cc
RE Himalayan 32 Nm 7.8 Nm/100cc

Seems to hold, don't you think?

I never brought up the DR650 for you because I thought you would not be able to find one for sale in Spain. As mentioned, ONLY buy a 1996 or later ... the DR650SE. Pre 1996 are problematic!

I could go ON AND ON about the DR650, but I do that too much here already and folks on HUBB are likely sick of me yammering on about how great the DR650SE.

I own a '06 DR650, lot of miles on it. Great bike but there are certain things you need to do to make it a good two up travel bike. (as with any bike!)

1. SEAT ....better seat for sure. Nice and WIDE is best!
2. Lighting. Add a HID or LED headlight bulb. Stator output on the DR650 is very low, so do anything you can to reduce electrical draw on the system.
3. Not absolute requirement but suspension upgrade really can help, especially riding TWO UP.

I could go ON and ON and ON. Be sure to read about the DR650 in two places:
www.DRRiders.com - A Dedicated Suzuki DR650 forum for DR650 riders to share their knowledge, experience and adventures! This is a DR650 specific forum. Very helpful.

And ...
the DR650 thread | Adventure Rider

This, the biggest thread on ALL of ADV Rider, started in 2006, everything about the DR650 is there. Just ask ... and stand clear.

Jenny makes some really good points regards DR650 vs.the CB500X RR.
I'll repeat, I agree with Jenny on some of this. If you plan more paved road and more Two Up, then YES, I would go with the CB500X. It's more a street bike, has more room for two.

BUT ... if really focusing OFF ROAD and riding SOLO, then I have to come down on the side of my beloved DR650. This is a super tough bike and most have NO CLUE just how tough and GOOD it is. I'll leave it there!

And Jenny, since you've never owned a DR650, I can tell you that is has a REAL subframe ...very strong one in fact. HUNDREDS have gone RTW over loaded.
Sure, a few problems but mostly reliable bike.

... and few sub frame failures. My DR650 has been to tip of Baja 5 times going ON and OFF road. Not one problem. I've ridden in Death Valley in 118F temps.
The DR didn't even notice. Smooth and quiet even hammering it over baja rocks and washboard.

Regards Carbs vs. F.I. If F.I. is so reliable ... how come we still read about quite a few break downs due to a failure of just one of the dozen components involved with an F.I. system.

I do agree, millions out there ride RTW with F.I. ... yet somehow I still read about problems. Usually problems from bad fuel. The DR650 will run on the worst crap Mexican gas. (you SHOULD filter it however)

For Two Up on a DR650, here is the sort of seat you will need:

My DR650 early on. I ditched the GIVI boxes and saved 30 lbs.! The seat is a leather covered Corbin.

Yes, but this thread is stuck with 650cc (or 450cc perhaps at the start) which in some of the detail postings becomes 600cc for the SWM engine - my point was that the thread was/is/maybe still is discussing a certain cubic capacity of engine; thereafter bore and stroke become relevant.

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Dave

Just a quick note, not to be argumentive. The community is strongly advising the DR650, as a current new/used ride, based on its proven reliability. I go back to some previous post which indicate newer vs older, parts and service availability and the ability to put on some serious KM with reasonable off road capability.
Momo034 has indicated he is a smaller person, putting saddle height and over all weight at the lower scale.
Today I have been looking at other manufacture offerings and came on this from Honda, very interestering. Honda 750 X ADV off road / touring scooter, rather nicely equipped. As there are pannier and top box offerings for the other Honda 750 Road scooter, there should be the same for the X ADV, worth looking into?
Salty

Good to know. Good news is my budget way exceeds the pricetag of these bikes so I could just have all new wiring done

After reading this I read all these old posts on the Hubb & AdvRider about carbies vs. EFI...maybe it is a case of being afraid of what I don't know...but Im still a bit afraid. Not something that would completely put me off on it but I still think I prefer a carburetor.

I think I am mostly hung up on extra 30kilos of weight, which is not chump change. A more comfortable seat on the 650 isnt really gonna weigh much more (I know it still probably wouldnt be as comfortable as the CB500 seat), neither will putting in a good LED bulb, and others seem to think the 650 has a decent subframe already. As for the extra power, its just not something I feel I need. The only reason I still consider the CB500x is comfort, and fuel consumption. And you the other thing Im still wrestling with is the RR upgrade and which to go for. Im small as I said, 1.73m, and skin and bones, so with the extra weight of this bike I would at least like to have my feet flat on the ground or close to it. So @JMo what are your thoughts on which kit? I know the level one does not raise the seat, but does it really make much of a difference?

Anyways, perhaps your right, its worth jumping on one and giving it a ride.

Super good to know, thanks

All good to know. I found this seat that people seem to like https://goo.gl/gibS9j And this one is funny, seems would probably be pretty nice especially for a passenger, unfortunately the one review it got was pretty bad https://goo.gl/bH7nXU

Anyways, point is there seem to be options out there to make the seat more comfortable.

And yea, as for suspension, Ill have plenty of budget leftover if I do decide to go with the DR650...and if I do I might ping you for some specific advice on that.

Funny, never knew such a thing existed. I wonder if they are selling any. Probably not something that I would seriously consider but its always nice to see totally new ideas. Thanks for thinking outside the box

BTW....I just had to share this in case any of you hadn't already seen it

https://goo.gl/JxKPQn

Funny thing, on paper it actually fits a lot of what I am looking for....that being said I already rode an Enfield from India to Spain and can say once was enough

I don't expect to come across any overlanders on one of these things any time soon but its still a funny novelty.

"Funny Novelty" is exact right!

There is a member here from India (I believe lives in the states now) who spent time on the Himalayan and wrote about it maybe 6 months or year ago.

Very critical review. I would not expect the bike to do well in mud ... TIP ... the DR650 or CB500X won't do it well either!

But the reality is the Enfield fails in numerous important areas. I would avoid like the plague.

If you read the forums I linked for you you'll find at least 6 seat choices.

A German guy on the DR Riders forum recently joined. He talked about his DR650 just recently bought ... it's a nice one and he says they ARE around in Germany. read the thread.
Who Knew? Check it out:

https://drriders.com/hola-folks-t22376.html