I started with soft luggage. Got my 1st set of hard luggage with my XT600. Stayed with hard luggage for more than 10 years on various bikes. Decided to go for soft luggage again. HATED IT!!! Every friggin moment. Going back to hard luggage.

Like I said- personnel preference. BUT...


And I'm sorry to say- it's about the setup of the bike, NOT the luggage that affects the handling most of all. My XT was very stable all the way upto 150km/h. Yes, the Yammie's suspension is crap, but that won't change because you have soft luggage

As for the weight difference- yes they're slightly heavier (not 20kgs- mine weighs in at around 5kg each). And if you're worried about the weight- don't overpack them. If you're worried about the size- make them smaller/slimmer.

few things I like about hard luggage as opposed to soft luggage (personnel opinion):

• more secure as they're lockable
• can use them to sit on, bike stands during repairs, tables etc
• if probably fitted, they can improve poor handling characteristics of your machine
• keep the heavy stuff in the bottom of the panniers and you have a lower center of gravity than with soft luggage
• easier to pick the bike when you drop it (more places to hold on to, bike doesn't 'lie as flat', etc)
• doesn't look like whore's handbag
• generally more watertight and protects your stuff better
• easy to repair (simple ones- not those double-skinned round jobs) and much stronger than soft luggage

This set of panniers on my XT was made by a Suisse guy- all home made allu that can be knocked together in a Saturday for the price of a few pop-rivets, an allu sheet, a few hinges and some silicon. I've had many, many falls with them Transferred them onto various bikes over the years. All-in-all: soft luggage SUCKS

But just my 2p

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Squily

Good choice. We have 17 of these XT 600E stationed in Osh, Kyrgyzstan, just in case....

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ADMIN NOTE: Website gone, email bounces, so no point in trying to connect. If anyone knows them please ask them to correct their details.

Correct ... all about preference and experiences you've had and what you're used to. After ten years on hard bags I'm not surprised you hated soft ones ... we don't like changes much do we?

I could quote back reams of Diatribe from Walter Colebatch on this subject ... but everyone's already read his stuff and knows most of his arguments for soft luggage. Must admit, he makes many salient points.

I've used BOTH hard and soft, but mostly ALL on road riding with hard boxes. On road rides I love hard bags. My first hard bag set up was on my 1981 R100RS. R800GS was next up. Going off road years ago (1970's) bikes could not be fitted with hard bags so it was naturally ALL soft bags. Back then, it was a pain. You had to improvise. Many a soft bag set afire. Many soaked contents ... many a case of a bag lost ... somewhere? :confused1:

But times change. (People? Not so much!)

It's all about WEIGHT. Of course, set up is important ... but nothing really mitigates too much weight. If you take weight off, your suspension (even crap stock suspension) has an easier time with LESS of a load. This is pretty obvious, no?

Easier said than done for most ...
I assume you've weighed up your Boxes, Racks, Hardware? I did, on two different GIVI bag set ups (Box, 8,5 lbs. Ea) ... which are lighter than Alu boxes. Also, the GIVI racks (8 lbs. EA) used are very light weight. Plus six big, long bolts. (2 lbs.)

All up, I reduced my load by 35 lbs. (15 kg) going from Hard to Soft bags. The difference in "feel" on my DR650 was palpable! Amazing!
My soft bags use racks too (small, light weight). Also, the rear cross bar used with Hard box racks is eliminated, and fewer bolts too.

Good you brought up the idea of packing lighter to overcome too much weight. Nice try! ... but that is one of our problems! Travelers tend to FILL UP their hard boxes ... and big boxes hold A LOT of stuff!
I am guilty of this too ... FILL IT UP!

Smaller and lighter boxes are a great idea! ... and I see yours are very narrow. Nice! Most are huge wide suckers that hold around 40 to 50 liters.

I think you left off one principle reason why Hard Bags are better:
They give you a place to display all your travel stickers!

This debate can go on forever. But for me, if riding mostly ON ROAD on my ROAD bike, I'll use hard panniers that came with it. If doing off road or going to 3rd world countries ... riding my Dual Sport DR650 ... it's got to be soft bags.

Soft bags take time to learn how to pack and arrange. Once done, not too bad. Mine have several "Inner" pouches and pockets which helps with stowing small items. Big stuff goes in Inner bags.


Neat & Tidy for 3 week ride

My "old" set up ... "Whore's Handbag?" Not so much!

New set up ... still in development. Neat, Fast, Practical ... and very cheap!

ahhh yes.. This is where those enduro riders, Dakar racers and MX racers are going wrong. They need heavy, square, un-aerodynamic luggage strapped to their bikes.

Someone should stop them wasting MILLIONS on R&D and material sciences trying to make their bikes lighter and more balanced...



Sorry to sound like an argumentative A**hole , but that is one of the craziest things I have ever read. No luggage can make a bike better. You can only do your best to reduce it's bad effects. And that is by keeping it as light, low and central as possible.

Fair dues, and to your credit; that's what you've done... Your boxes are very small and fitted low down and fairly central to the bike. They are the best way to have them. However they are not the 'norm' for that type of luggage. Like said, most strap 30-50L Ammo boxes to their bikes are fat 20kg racks placed high up to accommodate pillions etc.



Arguing hard/soft luggage is like arguing religion and politics...

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Try and answer some questions/comments.

Mollydog:

• I still use soft luggage when I go 'seriously' bush or desert because of the safety aspect of getting your legs caught under the boxes- you're absolutely right. I've got some nice scars on my right calf.
• weight: yes I have weighed the, and apart from the cross-member you referred to, there is no significant difference in the frame for my soft/hard luggage. yes the panniers themselves way a few kg more than the soft luggage, but if you want to nit-pick at this scale, why not start comparing different tire brands, thread-patterns and weight saving there? Or how-about different type of stoves/cooking gear and the fuel they use and how you can save 2kg there? I've had 1150Adventure panniers and I know they were quite heavy by comparison, but what I'm saying is: declaring a huge weight difference between soft and hard luggage is just generalizing and not necessarily true. E.g. I've got a bags-connection soft luggage system as well and that weighs more than my home-made allu panniers.
• locks only keep out honest people- but that goes for pac-safe to. i think we generally have to accept that we lock things to make it slightly more difficult/fidly for thieves and remove some of the temptation. And yes- I spent 15 years touring third world countries and the only things I lost was my camera and my boots (during the night)
• weight distribution: generally, allu panniers sit/rides lower than soft luggage. just look at the photo of your DR with soft luggage compared to my XT. granted- this could be a negative in some situations, but having ridden my Africa Twin with soft and hard luggage, I found the weight distribution better with hard panniers than soft.

Now for the big comment: improving handling.
Let me start by saying I don't disagree that a lighter bike handles better off-road than a heavier bike. And a heavier bike is more stable at higher speed e.g. 80-130km/h) than a lighter bike, especially with cross-winds. But that doesn't mean you should stock up on weight to make your bike more stable, because it's also where the weight on the bike that makes a difference.

one of the biggest bull comments/truths I've heard from people is 'keep the weight between the wheels'. It depends on the weight of the rider and/or pillion, the rake angle and length of the forks, the sag of the rear suspension and the power-to-weight ratio of the particular machine (and various other things) as to where exactly you want the weight distributed.

And how big/tall is the rider? E.g. People complain my XR has poor handling, but it's cause they're smaller than me and sit on the tank- too much weight on the front suspension and not enough on the rear, because the bike is setup for me, a 130kg rider that sits on the toolpack on the back with no weight on the front.

So back to my XT: it had really soft rear suspension that tended to sag a bit, long forks, a long rake and relatively poor power-to-mass ratio. This all equated to a poor handling package in unloaded, as well as loaded form- the bike tended to drift through the tight corners in the mountains, and you couldn't get the nose up in the rough as there was too much weight on the front. Simply by moving the 2 x 2litlre water bottles to the back of the pannier and by changing the original top-box design and swopping it around, it allowed for better off-road handling and more response of the front wheel. By moving the panniers higher, tilting them to have them sit level with the bike's seat, it allowed for a better loading platform over the pillion seat and centralized the weight, improving in-line stability. This all made the bike easier to ride, which equates to less fatigue for the rider. It was never fast, and fully loaded, would happily sit at 105km/h all day. But you could, by ringing it's neck in 4th, still get 140-150 out of it if you have to without killing yourself with the dreaded weave.

As for my Africa Twin- I used what I had learned from the XT and built my pannier frames for that along the same lines, but I kept the center-line of the panniers in the middle of the rear-axles, thus getting a relatively neutral balance and keeping the weight on the rear wheel and off the already struggling standard AT front suspension. (in later years, I upgraded the front an rear suspension, but that's a different story). I then loaded up the panniers (or overloaded- this was a test afterall) and took the bike to the motocross track and spent a few hours riding the course, ramping the bike and testing. Using some lead weights, it allowed me to move the weight inside the panniers forward, backward sideways, etc. and test the handling characteristics of the bike with the system. Went home, made a few minor alterations and back to track. In comparison to my GS, which has BMW pannier system, my AT is a breeze to ride. In fact, my AT handles just as easily loaded as unloaded, whereas the GS, when loaded up, feels like an overweight hippo and it takes a bit to get used to it.

Another gripe I have with off-the-shelf panniers: the tendency for manufacturers to have two different size panniers on either side. if your bike is not loaded equally, it won't handle right. My XT's left pannier was bigger than the right when I 1st got it. That was one of the 1st things I changed and it made a huge difference.

So Ted- I agree to disagree. Some bikes are just poorly setup to begin with and handle like crap even before you start adding things to them. I do agree that you must try and reduce the bad effects (not enforce them), and a good setup will improve the overall handling package.

And light is better, but in my experience- power-to-mass ratio is more important than overall weight. E.g. a 130kg XR600 might be easier to ride in sand than a 200kg 950 KTM, but add some luggage/weight and that KTM will soon be easier to ride than the XR. Thus- adding heavy panniers (if you can't make light ones) to a small machine will not be a good idea. But 5-10kg more on a bigger machine is really not worth complaining about. Getting back to one of your own earlier comments when discussing Dominators and DR's- the heavier one actually felt lighter and easier to handle.

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Squily

I think that you have been FAR from the main thread question...

"XT600 or DR650 which is the best for long distance travel?"

I think there are hundrends of topics about Hard or soft panniers in the Hubb...

Both bikes can do a lot of things in a long distance travel...Can carry soft and hard panniers..They can go to all types of terain easily,maintenance is easy and low cost on spares...

I have also a varadero xl1000v i prefer to keep it for two up trips in europe and get an XT (as i did)or a DR to go alone...Yes is gonna be tricky in the highways but is an excuse to avoid tolls!!Ha,ha!

As i see and read people starts travel with heavy motorcycles and as the years goes by the motorcycle gets more lighter and more simple and less power...
This is what i want to make my travel (not in the civilazation countrys) more easy in all sections...

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3mountainsadventure

zandesiro i see you have the XT600 so i would now invest in better suspension for your next mod (better front springs & a rear shock)

Good bike and that polish lad on ADV has done over 140,000km on his

Yes Wesley I have done the first 400km together until now...

Runs fine in my opinion but i wiil need an experts-mechanic opinion to measure the compresion of the cylinder...

If its ok, i will start to make some changes to the suspension,maybe a 25l tank if i find a cheap one new is expensive,some electrics light plugs...

Hope to get this year to the Dougs motocamp in Bulgaria it will be a small trip to see how is the travel with the XT...

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3mountainsadventure

I think you'll do fine on highway on your XT. And you are correct ... we've are too far OFF TOPIC.
I'd like to hear more ONE on ONE comparisons of the DR650 vs. XT600 bikes. Problem is, most members here are UK or EU based and FEW have access to the DR650. I've not seen many Ride Reports with XT riders over on ADV Rider, and never seen one on the road in USA or S. America. Plenty of DR650 riders on ADV Rider. Here on HUBB, very few DR650 reports in Ride Tales ... but LOTS of dialog going on in the Yamaha Tech section.

If anyone has links for XT600 ride reports (current or recent) please post here.

I'm guessing Yam XT's are one of the MOST popular bike on HUBB? Lots of expertise & experience from many skilled XT owner/ travelers. Big advantage for the XT here on HUBB. Travelers out of Canada and USA see more reports from those riding DR650, KLR's or Honda's. Here are a few links to some I've read starring the DR650:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...urfboard-72401
Prairies To Penguins Alberta to Argentina - ADVrider
tuckers to tdf - ADVrider
Two DR's Mainely seeking clams... - ADVrider

Jammin thru the Global South - ADVrider
Jammin Jay
No Jobs, No Responsibilities, No Better Time then Now - ADVrider
Big Al Smith
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...50+Baja&page=3
Jedi Master S. America
Alaska to Argentina - N69S54A - ADVrider
Lars from Joberg (girl friend riding DR650)
South for a while… maybe longer - ADVrider
Air Borne Andy
San Francisco to South America, eventually - ADVrider
evermore
Travellin' Troz - How NOT to travel to South America - ADVrider
Girl Friend on DR/Husband on KLR
Trails of North America...a photo journal - ADVrider
JediMaster N. America

It has been interesting to read this thread, and I must admit I have no experience of the XT, but I have owned a DR650 for the last 10 years.

It now has 80,000km on it and has taken me on trips all around Australia with no engine work done. I replaced the head stock bearings after a trip to Cape York and anyone who has done that trip wouldn't be surprised.

My point is that as far as I know, the 2013 DR650 here in Australia is exactly the same as my 2003 model, so when the bike finally gets to a point where everything starts to go, then all the adventure gear that I have added can be swapped straight onto a newer one. This includes 33 litre safari tank, staintune exhaust, luggage, screen and other bits and bobs. These bits represent and investment that now would be worth more than the bike.

The longest day I have done was 800km with no issues. I have found that the ability to move around the bike with a sheepskin cover over the standard seat to be comfortable enough.

Ted i bought the silvermans canvas soft bags,they are just perfect for their price...And 2 ortlieb 40liters waterproof bags to put inside!

Hope to test them on the road soon!

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3mountainsadventure

Excellent stuff... I've just built racks for my Dommie to fit mine.

If I was you I'd buy some big Velcro and sew them onto the flaps... I'll take pics of mine tomorrow.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Pic as promised.

Velco and a press stud. Cost a few quid and 30 mins sewing. Keeps it from flapping around in the wind.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Clever idea!!

Thank you Ted!!

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3mountainsadventure

I love my XT600, and I have done all the mods to make it great. It is strong and fun to ride and carries anything I want. However the DR is a great bike too, and I want one next for this reason and this reason only. You cant get XT's new anymore. If you buy an XT you are gonna have to repair it because they are all years old and have done lots of miles. And getting aftermarket products, like luggage racks etc is harder(I'm not saying it cant be done, but your options are reduced) The DR(especially here in OZ) has loads of current aftermarket stuff, and they easy to come by. When my XT finally gives up I wanna break it down and rebuild it beautiful like they do in Greece. But I'll get a DR for everyday riding. My 2 cents.

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