5Likes
|
|
9 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
Ya name brands are what I'm referring to . Things made by Chinese or those outsourced I couldn't say are better . The technology in manufacturing the races and especially ball bearings is what better . The balls are a more true sphere and hold less piece to piece variances not to mention metallurgy more refined . I wouldn't even consider a Chinese bearing for the crank , even if it had the correct class spec .
In reality the C3's may run better/smoother/quieter , they usually do in many situations , but also may not in this spot . I would think the reasons I said are likely why they went with the looser ones . I know at work it doesn't take much to make a bearing run hard , just .0003" extra press can make one drag and feel rough .
|
9 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
So I spoke to David, I could actually call him directly! Very nice of him.
So conclusion:
- C3 bearings are fine, aftermarket good quality ones too, he recommends koyo
- The bearing on the crank is actually a floating bearing! When the crank heats up, the bearing can move. Therefore it doesn't really matter where the bearings sits. It's the position the bearing was in the last time the engine cooled down. The position of the timing/chain gear is more important - and this one is fixed. It's important to measure where it sits before replacing the bearing.
- The output transmission bearing on the left side is a special bearing, and might need to be yamaha OEM.
- He recommends 10W50 over 10w40
- The 3aj gearbox gears / design is still crap. He said it's pretty much a waste of money to rebuild the entire engine without replacing the gears/transmission for aftermarket/newer parts, since the pitting (and as a result lose chunks) will wear the engine again anyway.
Anyway there was another thing regarding this engine, and that is the fact that there's 0.9mm sideways clearance on the big-end. (manual says 0.35-0.65mm). Vertical play is 0, so that's good.
Also, the crank width itself it 75.25mm instead of 74.95-75.00.
My idea was to have it re-pressed -0.30mm so both are within clearance again. However I just came back from the shop and it might be 90euros and he won't have time until 2 weeks.
With the above and the gearing thing, I'm now thinking about just leaving everything as it is (I bought this bike non-running) and see what's what. (with thicker 50 oil)
Will save me lots of euros.....
I'm not sure what the end-goal here is that's the problem. If I want to travel long distances on it in the future it might be worth it.
Last edited by Doubleyoupee; 10 Jun 2017 at 12:11.
|
9 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,417
|
|
Yeah, SKF and many others have factories in China.
|
10 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
So did some better inspection on my gears. The output shaft looks fine visually, no pitting to be seen with naked eye.
The input shaft has some pitting on the 4th and 5th gears, on some of the teeth (i'd say on 1/4 of the teeth). These are the worst ones. 3rd gear has slight dents on 2 teeth also seen on the photo.
Direct link so it doesn't turn sideways: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6gowyc09o...5.24.jpg?raw=1
Most of the other cogs on the 5th gear look fine, like the one behind the 3 pitted cogs. Looks like I got the older 3AJ gears with 19 teeth 5th gear.
Is it even worth it doing anything on this engine if I put this back into the engine? How long before this starts giving trouble? Does this gearbox still have some KMs in it without spraying chunks of metal all around the engine?
I'm assuming people replace them with XT600E gears or something? I looked at the input shaft and it seems the gears are part of the shaft so I'm guessing they need to be pulled/pressed...? Do later 3TB+ gears just swap on?
Last edited by Doubleyoupee; 10 Jun 2017 at 13:08.
|
11 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
Those gears could last 5k ,8k ,12k . no way to say exactly till they start being real noisy and eventually a tooth breaks . You can only use the older gears , the E start's are thicker , though one or 2 have turned them thinner to put in the older cases , a lot of work . Other option is to find low mileage used ones that haven't started pitting or buy new , which unless the bike is in mint shape it not worth the cost IMO.
.
|
11 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrider
Those gears could last 5k ,8k ,12k . no way to say exactly till they start being real noisy and eventually a tooth breaks . You can only use the older gears , the E start's are thicker , though one or 2 have turned them thinner to put in the older cases , a lot of work . Other option is to find low mileage used ones that haven't started pitting or buy new , which unless the bike is in mint shape it not worth the cost IMO.
.
|
Mine IS the E-starter by the way. New 3AJ 4th and 5th input gear is 2x80 euros. + need to be pressed on.
What about 3TB/4PT gears. They are 21 teeth 5th gear I think but do they swap in the 3AJ e-start engine?
The whole point of replacing all bearings + doing the crank + new gears is to make the engine is 'mint' condition. The barrel has been honed + new cylinder 10000KM's ago.
The alternative is to leave everything as is - old bearings, these gears and 0.9mm horizontal play on the big end. I don't want to do any of these if I'm not doing the others as well.
|
13 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
I guess what I'm used to is 3TB's are our e-starts , we never got a 3AJ , but it's the same as our kicker models , motor wise at least .So even though your is e-start it's still the old style and the 3TB gears won't fit as far as I remember . I rebuild 2 3tb's , one with a trashed tranny and I don't think any of the gears fit because I had several old trannie sets but still had to buy new gears for it.
Do you have a fine spline output shaft for the front drive sprocket or the course 6 spline output shaft ? That'll tell me which tranny those e-start 3AJ's used for sure, I know not all had the starter, just kick only.
As far as gearing changes , I liked the older ratios better , my 3tb has too high 1st to get a decent 60-65mph cruising rpm . I think you can put the 3TB clutch gear and primary gear on the 3AJ to get a little bit closer . It may require the input shaft changed so the clutch fits , been a few years since thinking about that and which parts do actually fit.
|
18 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
Quick question,
I got the full gasket set from KEDO and I'm installing the valve seals.
I noticed that one of the valve seals has an extra rubber seal/insert in off it. There other 3 were in the bag and not inside the valve seals.
With the seal in, it doesn't fit on the valve guide at all, and the original seal I have don't have it it either.
What are these seals for? The gasket set is only for 600. Is it for the old type head or something? Thanks
pic:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c4ngz9pm8e...4.11.jpg?raw=1
|
18 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete j
|
A lof of info there.
The conclusion is to buy 4TP gears? but they are wider?
Do they swap in 1:1 ? Or do you have to make modifications?
The best (cheapest) way for me would be only replace 5th gear on the input shaft, since the gear on the output has no visual pitting at all.
How hard is it to get the gears off of the input shaft? Can it be done with a simple bearing-pulled and heatgun?
|
19 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
HUBB regular
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 66
|
|
Wear on 5th gear
Found this old post of what i did. You are welcome to ask questions if you need.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...solution-80123
That modification has done 10867 km and has been completely successful.
This was about making 5th gear last. As you will see, it became about how to stop 5th gear destroying the engine.
The gears are wider. That is why they last. You will have to grind both original 2nd gears to accommodate the 3yf gears. (There is no detriment to 2nd gear, only material is taken at centre boss of small gear pressed on shaft, and a lick off the big 2nd gear)
You will need a small press. No heat please. No change to 3yf gears, fit straight in with mod to 2nd gears.
I believe the factory changed the main engine housing to fit wider gears.
Quote: "The best (cheapest) way for me would be only replace 5th gear on the input shaft, since the gear on the output has no visual pitting at all."
'Best' and 'cheapest' are not words can put together any place i know of
Depends what you need from the bike.
Cheers,
p
Last edited by pete j; 20 Jun 2017 at 08:45.
|
19 Jun 2017
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
Thanks,
Unfortunately grinding things off the gears is no option for me. Too much for this project.
I wish there was just a new replacement gear that is made from a stronger material.
Too bad the kedo gears are so expensive, I'm not paying 250 euros for 2 gears....
Maybe i'll get new factory 3aj gears.. or just leave it like this..(the gears aren't THAT bad) and then just oil changes and riding carefully in 5th gear
|
25 Jan 2019
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 145
|
|
So after a long time I finally had time to bring the crank over to the local shop.
They pressed it but unfortunately it skipped 0.6mm in 1 go instead of 0.3mm. So now the big-end play is 0.30mm (should be 0.35mm-0.65mm) and the crank width is 74.70mm (should be 74.95-75.25mm).
They work on a lot of old engines, but mostly cars. They said 0.3mm is perfectly fine, and the 74.65mm is also fine since it has regular roller-bearings on the side.
Any thoughts? Should I go back?
|
27 Jan 2019
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
That's .002" less but still .0118" clearance (SAE since I'm used to it) , it'll be ok .
.
__________________
'86 XT600/3TB motor,,, '88 XT600, ,,'92 XT600e,,, '08 Husky TE510,,, '05 DRZ463,,, '95 KLX650 ,,,'96 KLX650
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 2 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Next HU Events
ALL Dates subject to change.
2025 Confirmed Events:
- Virginia: April 24-27 2025
- Queensland is back! May 2-4 2025
- Germany Summer: May 29-June 1 2025
- CanWest: July 10-13 2025
- Switzerland: Date TBC
- Ecuador: Date TBC
- Romania: Date TBC
- Austria: Sept. 11-15
- California: September 18-21
- France: September 19-21 2025
- Germany Autumn: Oct 30-Nov 2 2025
Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!
Questions about an event? Ask here
See all event details
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook
"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|