That is astonishing. What is the failure mode, exactly ? Ruling out off-road chopper geometry the difference on loading of the headstock and associated bearing surfaces would be minor between say, a KTM EXC (114kg) and a KTM ADV 950/990 (closer to twice the weight of the EXC) and . . . while they do see very differing applications . . . I don't think you'll find a the failure rate of headset bearings being much different. In fact, the twitchy EXC (on road) might be worse. And it's not uncommon to change the triples on the ADVs to QUICKEN steering.

It also strikes me as a bit unacceptable, or at least highly undesirable, because while previously KTM ADVs often had water pump seal issues at 25000km that repair can be effected on the road, with almost no special penalty in tools that would be normally carried. Headset bearings ? Nyet.

Are the bearings just dry as previously mentioned ? (DRZ swingarm bearings are notoriously dry though nobody seems to be too generous there . . . ) Is the seal just a rain gutter into the bearings ?

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Orange, it's the new black.

I think Colebatch comes with important consciderations earlier on, and he didn't deserve the bashing. Opinions were sought and given. And, we are all a bit touchy feely when it comes to bikes, right? Kiss up and make friends - it is all with good intention.

The Bimmer in question though is undoubtably a very capable bike, it will take you anywhere you want to go, and do a decent job at it _ I really won't trust anyones judgement that oppose to this (that's just me). If I can take my classic Vespa scooter off road, over rocks, ruts, sand and mud in Africa (with a lot of pushing), the F800GSA will manage, promise! This is not the same to say that it is the most suitable at all things, like riding harcore offroad at higher speeds. But, I guess if you are experienced enough to willingly embark on a "mostly offroad" trip - you probably allready know this, right? If you are not, well then you will likely plan a trip with very mixed riding, most of it being both bike and biker friendly - and in such a case, the 800 won't have you banging yourself too much over the head too much of the time.

Do I want a F800GSA? Yes!
Do I want a 400'ish cc type offroader? Yes!

I currently ride the F650GS Dakar and also have a full blood F250WR enduro Yamaha as well (among other bikes). The Yamaha is by far the most agressive bike, and the most fun and easy to ride... but, even its road legal sibling, the service intervals, tank capacity, lack of subframe, etc - means that it is a no go type bike for me. I do infact like to bring more stuff with me tah fit in a simple saddle bag... and I am not too fond of numerous jerrycans.

Sometimes I wish the Dakar was lighter and more nimble, at other times I wish I had the better road and load traits of the 800. I want a new bike, but I can't decide which way to go, even though I am fully aware of the pros and cons of going bigger or smaller. The problem is the same that many of us share, I want to make the best compromise for the lifetime that I will own the bike. For the forseable future though, the offroading share won't be great - and as such, the larger Bimmer would be a great choice for me. But, for an extended African adventure, I would sell it in a heartbeat and go for something much much lighter - not because the bimmer wouldn't hack it, but because I would enjoy the trip much more travelling light - even my Dakar would be too heavy for my taste.

My two cents. If you plan to do a very long trip beyond places like western Europe and the USA, then I would go for a light bike. You never plan to do frequent short offroad trips, either you allready do or you don't, and you will then know what you need. If you'r bike is your daily ride at home, and you mostly do trips arround Europe, with a few weeks every odd year to places like iceland or morocco, maybe even as far as Senegal, then I would go for the 800. Ride all the way to Congo? I would think you would likely regret every ekstra kilo you brought with you. If you still can't decide - go light... it is also cheaper.

As for the rims - if they are crap - change them, right? Unless you go top shelf, the relative extra cost of the total bike and all the stuff that you will load it with, won't murder your piggybank (...if you are the kind of person that buys a brand new one of these... and all the riding gear and gismos that typically fit the uniform).

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Blog: www.bamakobyvespa.no
My Youtube Channel

From the link in the OP, the electronics are described as:_
"Mixture control/engine management Electronic fuel injection, digital engine management (BMS-K+)"

Does this mean that this model (or even all 800GSs) have the CANbus system?

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Dave

Yes. The only model in the current bmw range that doesn't run canbus is the g650 models.

I think the follow up question has to be, does the GS-911 tool also work with the F or is there a flash code or some other means outside an equipped dealer ?

Cheers

Andy

I believe it does work with the F series.

Most Japanese bikes either have in-built diagnostics as per your (and mine!) V-strom or are covered by HealTech.

TuneECU cover a lot of bikes as does DealerTool.

Yamaha Tenere owners can buy the official Yamaha tool for about sixty quid.

So no real excuse for the home mechanic to be stumped by all that electronic stuff; in many ways, it has made our jobs easier IMHO.

When is this bike going into mass-production? Can i order it with tubeless tyres?

- Thanks for the two books you recommended. I just ordered them online.

- i'm having some off-road experience, two weeks Marocco and two months crossing West Afrika. Came from a suzuki v-strom 1000, changed it for a new yamaha tenere (2008) which was my first Marocco companion and is in Nigeria now (for sale there).
At home (Belgium), i'm riding a BMW GSA the whole year. No car anymore. Now i'm looking for a new lighter all-round bike, have seen the new F800GSA at the dealer few day's ago. Was thinking about changing my GS for it. Reading this topic i'm more heading to a X-Challenge now as a second bike in Belgium and once preparing for a RTW tour.

this also made me change my mind. Buying other rims is a peace of cake, other engine out of the question. :-)

But just curious, could you comment more on this?
It's kinda heavy for off-road, i know ( just saw this > youtube: F800GS trail adventure ) but so is my Yamaha Tenere, 'top-heavy' while the BWM's gravity center is lower due his lower located fuell-tank. But these are somewhere dual purpose bikes. And loaded with long-time-travel luggage on such bikes i would for sure avoid trail tracks anywhere as much as possible :-) Have done some day's on sand(y) tracks in West Afrika, whished i was on a bicycle those day's!

Given the 800's meager power (say in comparison to an 7-year old KTM ADV), it's woeful suspension components . . . it's pretty heavy "for what it is".

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Orange, it's the new black.

The OEM front rim on the KTM 950/990s is soft. But . . . without knowing the exact model . . . I've seen plenty do far more than the eastern BAM without a problem. I have an Excel A60 1.6 on mine.

As for the "cheap" KTM forks ? The company is guilty of being a box of (high quality) parts across really all models. There are ALOT of BMWs running WP (KTM) forks for all the right reasons.

Recently, on ADVRider someone put forth an "Ohlins" upgrade over the standard WP parts on ADVs/SEs via a poll.

Over 60% of respondents said "nope, I'll spend the money on ". The majority of those had re-valved and/or re-sprung their forks. KTM suspension parts are pretty good, at least.

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Orange, it's the new black.

Yes I can comment more on the weight issue.

The dry weight of the outgoing standard R1200GS is 203 kgs.

The dry weight of the F800 Adventure is the same. Its supposed to be a lighter bike - a middle weight bike. It isnt. If 200 kgs is a big adventure bike then middle weight bikes should be 165-180 kgs dry. I cant see how anyone can consider a 229 kg wet weight bike (without luggage) anything but a big / heavy bike.

The problem is when you look closely at an F800, you struggle to find any evidence on the bike have BMW designers been weight conscious. If BMW had put a little effort into weight reduction the bike could easily be 25 -30 kgs lighter

Your Tenere 660 is also about 185 kg dry weight. As far as I am aware, its the heaviest single cylinder bike in the world. Possibly the heaviest single cylinder bike ever built. Again, Yamaha has made zero effort to reduce weight. That bike could be 40 kgs lighter.

Manufacturers make a lot of effort to reduce weight on track replica bikes, on MX bikes and on proper enduro bikes. But they dont make any effort on adventure bikes. And if the adventure bike buying public dont demand lighter adventure bikes, the manufacturers never will bother making any effort to reduce the weight of them.

In response to your debating of F800 vs X-challenge (144 kgs dry), I recommend you read these thoughts from a man who not only owns both, but has done proper off road adventuring on both the F800GS and the XC (each bike for at least 3 months across Siberia and Latin America) - With that experience of both bikes I know of no-one more qualified to give a balanced, objective comparison on real world adventuring on those two bikes:

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

The same guy, in another post in an answer to a question about comparing the two as adventure bikes, wrote this:

Bear in mind he was referring to the F800GS ... the new F800Adventure is 15-20 kgs heavier again!

A further interesting observation related to weight from one of us HUBBers riding around the world on a KTM 690 (138 kgs dry) at the moment. He was last month in the stunning scenery of Tajikistan ...

ADVrider - View Single Post - RTW with Noah on a KTM 690

Why have a big bike if it will limit your trip?

To me this is one of the ultimate questions that I see people who are new to Adventure Motorcycling failing to ask themselves. Certainly there are some very skilled riders for whom a big bike will not limit their choice of routes. But they are a tiny minority in the world of adventure riders. For the rest (98%) of us mortals, we need to seriously consider weight.

You should not be limiting your adventure because of your choice of a heavy bike. If a person limits their adventure because of the weight of their bike, then the adventure itself was not their priority. Maybe image is? Maybe something else? (not that there is anything wrong with that)

My experience when it comes to bike selection, gear selection, tyre selection etc .... is you should plan for the toughest parts of your trip. If a guy is riding from London to Cameroon, across the Sahara, the experienced man will not select his bike, his tyres, his luggage as to what will work best on the motorways of Europe. If the hardest part of that planned trip is the dunes of the Sahara, then he needs his choices to first and foremost, be compatible with that. Any adventure bike for a given trip is a compromise. But the selection criteria you should compromise the least, are those required for the hardest parts of the trip. A wise choice is not an even compromise between all aspects of your trip, its a compromise heavily biased towards the hardest parts of your trip.

You should plan (and select gear) for the toughest parts of the adventure you want to have. Any bike, any luggage, any tyres can deal with the easy stuff ...

Here are more observations related to bike weight from another HUBB writer a few weeks ago in Mongolia:

Whats clear from those observations is that the amount of fun was totally connected to the weight of the bikes.

Here's another story from last year and Mongolia - written from the perspective of a different guy on a KTM 690 (138 kg dry):

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

[edit] A new comment just in from UB, from another adventurer, whose 1200 GSA was too heavy for the job and ultimately arrived into the Mongolian capital on the back of a truck.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mongolia-71550

The reality is, as soon as you get off the asphalt, weight is a very very important issue. Lose 40 kgs and its a totally different experience, as the guy comparing his experiences between the F800 and the XC pointed out. The difference between suffering / enduring somewhere like Mongolia and enjoying it, is 40-50 kgs in bike weight.

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Thank you very much for your great reply and effort!

I just wrote an email to a Belgian motorbiker friend whom i met in West Afrika if his x-challenge was not for sale and if not, he new another one to buy for me an tune up with his help, experience and advice :-)
his bike > My RTW his bike > XChallenge - ADVrider

Most people probably agree that it's easier to use a light bike offroad then a heavy bike. I own a 400EXC and a 200 (210?) kg BMW and I can go places with the EXC which I find impossible with the BMW.

But on the other hand I would say that my heavy BMW has never limited my trips. What have limited my trips are lack of range. I need a bike which can carry fuel for 750 km and water for a few days and all my other luggage. Basically I would say that a heavy bike is more suited for heavy loads, in general it's better to add 100 kg to a 200 kg bike then adding the same weight to a 150 kg bike. (handling, frame, brakes etc).
I've met quite a few travelers in Africa who use light bikes but still stick to the main route because they simply don't have the range to get off the main routes. This have been more common the last years.

If you don't need the range and plan to do a lot of hard offroad a lighter bike might be a better choice.

I also think that pleasure is an issue. For me it's much more fun to ride a bigish powerful bike, 50.000 km on a single cylinder bike doesn't sound like my kind of fun - but people are different.

Docsherlock,
There has to be scope in this for a brand new thread that spells out the facts about bike electronic diagnostics, such as what they can do, what they can't do, and similar facts.
This might serve to dispel some of the tendency to treat the circuitry of modern bikes as being "black magic" and not something for "real" old skool mechanics.

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Dave

totally agree!
But lifting up our heavy Tenere bikes 10 times a day on sand roads in Senegal (see picture) ain't fun anymore :-)

So people and roads are diffirent! :-)

I also think that pleasure is an issue. For me it's much more fun to ride a bigish powerful bike, 50.000 km on a single cylinder bike doesn't sound like my kind of fun - but people are different.


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With much less experience than many of the contributors, I am trying a approach with this type of pleasure in mind.
I have a 2006 1200GSA that I took half way around Australia with 55kgs worth of gear including hard panniers. The few times I went off road were scary, based on the weight and my lack of experience.

Using the expertise of the Ultralight community (backpackers/cyclists/others on the Hubb), I have reduced my gear to under 20kgs. I have replaced the battery, replaced the rear rack and rear seat with a plate and gone for Giant Loop soft luggage, also replaced the stock muffler. This reduced my weight by 22kgs before gear! All up saving of 44kgs!

I have sufficient gear to do a RTW trip (minus food and water) and my bike is around the standard weight for a GSA of 260kgs fully packed. While that is still a heavy bike, I am trialling it with that setup around some harsh Australian off-road in The Kimberley (WA). I am not in an enduro race and I don't need to push myself to extremes, but I do enjoy some fun off road and so far I have traversed deep and sometimes wet red sand, knee deep creek crossings, corrugated and stoney roads and the bike has handled it all easily. I can happily skip across some gnarly roads at 100km/h with ease. Yes I've come off but a standard GSA is not that heavy to pick up for me, so no big deal so far.

I rode 9000kms on tarmac to get here and the same bike is handling this terrain, all with comfort, tons of power and ease.

I also have a Yamaha XT600 that I used to regain my riding skills on. Great bike, but would not have considered it for a minute to do what I have done on the GSA. It was hard work to ride over 100km/h on the highway and never felt as stable as the GSA in any conditions. That was without gear.

In summary, A large bike with very light gear is my choice. I'm sure the 800GS would be equally capable with light gear and significantly less total weight than the 1200.

Question to all: How many of you weigh all your gear and know exactly the weight you are carrying?