I'm planning to head through Russia during winter on my '650 twin. What parts / liquids / lubricants should I change for cold weather (-25 C to -10 C) operating?

Also can anyone provide tips on 1. tyres & 2. riding on ice technique?

Thanks in advance
Ciao
Dave

Assuming you don't want to follow convention and get an aircooled three wheeler;

You need to change all the fluids so they'll work at well below the minimum temp, but I'm not sure what to. The F650 has a couple of problems compared to say a Ural. As the clutch is wet you'll need motorcycle oil, no chance to drop in what the locals use in their Lada's as it'll wreck the clutch. Normal multigrades (5W50 if you can get it?) should work down to about -40 so they are getting a bit thick at -20 but won't actually freeze. You'll need to talk to BMW about the antifreeze, there'll be a limit on what strength they'll allow and they may want to change the fill quantity to avoid the reservoir spliting (which I assume is plastic and will go brittle?). The clutch stirring the sump sludge is going to be a big draw on the battery,but again the solo bike can't be fitted with a car battery, the normal solution. I'd fit the biggest capacity gel battery you can lay your hands on and carry a plug in charger too. Anywhere to fit a second battery? Make sure every electrical connection is waterproof, especially anything to do with the FI and starter. If the weather gets bad you are going to have to find somewhere at least indoors for the bike. I'd consider carrying something like a greenhouse heater and a cover to keep the battery and sump above freezing if the only choice is a sheltered bit of carpark. QD connections on the battery are useful so you can bring it indoors.

Tyres wise, narrow knobblies are about the best thing on snow, you can get Heidenaus that are M&S compound. You need to be very smooth and allow a lot of time to do anything, think sand. On ice nothing short of studded tyres works well enough to cover anysort of distance. Not sure how the authorities will react to you using studs on the streets and with the solo bike you can't easily carry two sets. Chains work for short periods but won't survive a transcontinental journey. Chains are useful when you've ridden on cleared roads and meet a bit of snow or ice, but they take ages to get on/off. I assume you'll have a refit planned somewhere along this route? Studded tyres don't last long are aren't nice on tarmac.

You also need to really consider your survival needs. At minus 20 with a heated jacket and ski/expedition gear (no armour, it's harder to fall off three wheels) on an outfit I can ride for maybe a couple of hours before I want to get indoors, I've done 4 but it was getting rough and honestly dangerous. If you touch something like the fuel tank without gloves on you'll soon have frost bite. To change a puncture in these conditions you don't have long and need to work in gloves. There is a point where you have to give up and go get warm, fine if you can hop a mates outfit and plug your jacket in, not so great if you are planning a *****y long walk.

Are you sure about those temps? Minus 20 isn't the maximum daytime temp? Central Russia in winter might see an average in the minus-teens at midday but the low can be minus 40.

I really can't see the F650 solo as a sensible option in conditions in Scandanavia in winter. Russia is going to be worse, so I'm suggesting you think about buying a Ural when you land.

Andy

A friend of mine uses his F800GS all the year in Norway, he has used it in pretty cold climate:


With anti-freeze and thin synthetic oil you have a fair chance to get it started in the morning if your battery is in extraordinary good shape.

When it is -18°c the battery has lost 60% of the cranking power, and you will need a lot of power to turn a cold engine!
I’m not familiar with the charging-system on the F650/800 but the voltage should be increased with 0.3V for every 10°c the temperature drops. Failure to do this might lead to a frozen battery (usually not fixable).

There are a lot of tricks, like pouring hot water over the battery and preheat the engine over a fire (or a stove) but I wouldn’t based my trip on tricks like that.


You can not rely on electrical clothing and remember that you will freeze to death in short time if you are not prepared.

Trelleborg has nice tires for use in the winter. The length of studs has to be selected based on the length of the trip and road-conditions. I have used a set with shorts studs for 8000km but that’s pushing it.

Practice on everything before you leave, have you tried to patch a tube in -25°c? You will get some surprises….


Check: Minutes of a Motorcycle Addict - A Guide to Winter Riding

The only intentional sub-zero riding I've done has been with my Ural sidecar, and I can assure you I would have been on my @rse in the first 1/4 mile on my Honda. Of course some are very capable on ice, with the right kit, but it does not come overnight.

Tyres:
Heidenau K60 SNOW is the only one that springs to mind. As far as I know it is not a studded tyre. You can always buy your own studding kits, but I do not know how permanent these are.

On the one hand I wish you luck: a great personal acheivement. On the other hand I find myself asking: are you sure you want to this? Would sidecar, Quad or simply 6 months later not be a better idea?

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Be dressed for the climate - as if you were to walk on foot and/or sit down.

Too much clothes is not a problem whilst you ride; too little is.

Beware to cover -all- skin; any portion exposed with get frostbitten in a flick of an eye; remeber -24'C is way below -70'C chilling effect at normal crusing speed!

* Handlebar muffs.
* Heated handles.
* Heated muffs.
* Heated seat.
* Windprotections of the whole body (R80-100RT is the best fairing ever built).
* Largest possible panniers you can find; preferably fiberglas. Saves the bike, makes it far easier to lift it up after dropping it, saves you legs from getting jammed.
* Get the Lindstrand army boots:
Jernbergs - www.jernbergs.se - Speedway, Isracing, Roadracing, Veteran, Motocross & Enduro, Touring, Snöskoter
Jernbergs - www.jernbergs.se - Speedway, Isracing, Roadracing, Veteran, Motocross & Enduro, Touring, Snöskoter
You will need to contact Eric Jernberg directly and ask for the armyboots - these are made exclusively for the Swedish Army, motorcycle divisions.


* Trelleborg Army Special fully studded; 13mm's soldered steel "spikes" - or 15mm. Do not use longer studds! Studd plate is to stand on the cord - less is does that you'll loose the studd and get no traction.
Optional tyre:
* Trelleborg Winter Friction. Excellent tyre.
There is only one (1) company in Sweden that really knows how to studd bike tires, it is situated in Alunda 20-30km east of Uppsala. You'll have to get back with me as to name and adress (can't remeber as I write... getting old I guess...).
* skiis does make the driving in snow and on ice-roads more fun -

I use Cheng Shin C-186 since Dunlop and Metzeler trials are off the productionline since 1988. Then my need is best traction on asphalted roads with little or no snow, black ice or packed snow/ice - and I do drive a BMW R80/100RT touring equipped (vastly different from what you are to use.

Brows:
- - - VÄLKOMMEN till F M C K - Frivilliga Motorcykelkårernas Riksförbund - - -
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
Look for Winter course in Älvdalen, or Vinterutbildning i Älvdalen.

Driving at winter is more fun than at summer - but places higher demands on preparations and equippment. Bring the right stuff, avoid bringing too much.

As for lubrications:
Distributörer av Omega olja och fett såsom smörjolja och smörjfett - Smörjteknik Norden AB Omega lubricationbrand have the products you need for extrem temperatures. Magna Industrial Co. Limited

+++++++++++
Almost forgot, thank you Alibaba for your good homesite on winter driving -

* You will have to have a heated visir! There is no way you can ride at really low temps without it. All the electrical demands posed on the vehicle, like Andy points out, really pushed the need to have a strong and reliable alternator... like a Bosch 55-120A from any car...
The load should be about 35-40W in BMW 1-3 helmets.
VW motoroil heater:
http://www.webstruktur.com/svea/board/messages/5/103.html?torsdagden18november19992306

Alternator:
http://www.webstruktur.com/svea/board/artik/bilgen.html

http://www.webstruktur.com/svea/board/artik/mont_bilgen.html

And... Odyssey batteries of cause.

__________________
Drive Safely,
Albert

Love the sump heater. I wonder how effective a heating coil wrapped round the oil filter cartridge would be? It'd be easier to install and could be removed in summer to prevent damage.

I've just been installing an 85AH deep cycle battery (details to follow). There is no practical way to up the Bonneville's actual generation capacity, but I figure the longer it can "hold it's breath", the more chance I've got of finding somewhere warm enough to switch some stuff off or get the battery plugged into a wall.

Dagj: If you need to knock up a heated visor, this could be useful:

https://sites.google.com/site/threew...ces/heated-kit

I came to the conclusion 15W was enough so long as it started warm and is kept turned on. 55W was enough to melt my first prototype! . Depends on the area the power is spread over of course and I'll bow to Alibaba and Alberts greater experience.

Andy

Dont mean to scare you, but I hope you are not planning to go through entire Russia (to Vladivostok) in midwinter?? If so, then -10 or even -25C wont be nowhere near enough. In Siberia, think -40, -50 or -60C. I´ve done some winter riding in Finland, and I´d say -10C is about where I´d rather stay home. And it very rarely rises up to -10C in Siberia during winter months.

The best part of the this thread is all the insightful comments thus far from the winter riding contingent, mostly located in northern countries. Finland, Estonia, Norway, Sweden, that's a lot of winter experience

The 800GS (and I assume the 650) in stock condition starts very reliably up to about -10 C, at -15 it takes some cranking but generally fires up fairly quick, at -20 you need a boost to turn it over enough to get it running without killing the battery, at -25 it takes a very long boost, some kicking an swearing, and parking it in the sun to just maybe get it going, and at -30 you are best to pull it into a heated building to thaw it out.

My initial thoughts on a ride across Russia is that it sounds like fun, but access to heated buildings in Eastern Russia is extremely limited so you would have to be completely self sufficient. Possible, but a geat deal of planning required.

The road conditions would also produce some interesting dilemas. The trans-siberian is not maintained well even in summer, in winter who knows whether parts of it ever get plowed. You should be prepared to ride on ice and packed snow and loose snow. The ice part you can prepare for and is acually quite fun to ride on. The snow part, on a bike with no side car, would be a challenge to say the least.

I see we have some issues that have been jumped...
* climate factors.

-10'C at sealevel, like the UK, costal areas of scandinavia and baltic etc; that is as Pecha72 points out; damned cold!
-20'C at the moutain tops in Norway (in-land climate, dry air) is less cold than -10'C at sealevel in the costal areas like Helsinki, Stockholm...

When temp drops below -25'C it really gets chilly... -30-35'C is really cold...



My equippment, same as I use in summer, is ok down to about -18'C for rides around Mälardalen (100-200km inter-city trips), but when it drops to -20'C I like to pull a snowmobile suit over (on top of) my bike-suite. With this, it is ok down to about -25'C... below that one must use far better clothings.

Heated linings are great - good comfort, but is to be used as a neat suppliment. Things like heated linings have a tendecy to prove Murphys and Finagle's Laws... when you really need it - the circuit is busted and you get no heat.


15W visir will make a trip down to -7'C in the low-land areas ok, but will not work at higher altitudes (inland-climate)... you simply need more.
Andy is still correct (!)


On the Crystal rally back in 1994 I saw an East German solution; hot air. Two MZ 250's with two different solutions; one using the whole exhaust system as heater and the other had simply put an eberspaecher, www.eberspaecher.se: Luftvärmare , Eberspächer UK ,on the luggage carrier. (IF I could figure out how to publish pics on H.U. I would - but I overfill the quota all the time... send contact me directly and I'll send you the pics to your e-mail account for the time being).

Here are some links to winter riding:
YouTube - sweden army motorbike in full winter
YouTube - sweden army motorbike in full winter IIII
YouTube - sweden army motorbike in full winter
YouTube - Husqvarna 258A Military with automatic and ski equipment in snow
YouTube - Hjälmkamera Enduro träning FMCK Gävle I 14 090214

The major problems are:
* hands
* feets
* face
If you are really to do this trip on a 650 - contact Göran at www.touring.se . Göran did a comersial thing with BMW AG in 1994 - I think they used 7-10 Funduros - prepared them for the Crystal Rally (big article in the Swedish BMW Club magazine. Svenska BMW MC Klubben • Index ). We who are prepared and have experience sat at the hotell at the moutaintop watching the arrival of these "vikings". As they steped off their Funduros they vanished from the face of the earth (flead inside/-doors...) - much to our amuzent; these "vikings" were freezing to their bones while we were eating ice-cream and stroling around the moutain at -20'C in the bright sunshine making jokes about them -

Touring at winter is -not- like active driving such as enduro or motorcross... it is much more like sitting down on a park-bench at a seaside resort with hard and heavy winds coming in from the sea... it is -cold-, but if you have the proper gears, i.e. not freezing, you will enjoy it. The air is fresh. No protein messing up you visir and fairing-screen. Glittering and sparkling from the snow/watercrystals. The sharp light (sunglasses is a must!). The Disney fairlytale like night ridings as your drivinglights lit up the road and its surroundings !



There is one condition at winter you should dread - the blizzards! Those are real killers - do not mess with them; you stand no chans - they win, and you loose!



Keep the hands and feet warm = the body will be warm.

__________________
Drive Safely,
Albert

This is interesting. I like a challenge, but am not sure if I would want to cross Russia in winter.
My wife and I were riding down to Ushuaia in winter (May-2009) with our BMW 1150GS.
We had normal riding gear, Skiing jackets and thick pair of jeans, Thick thermal under wear and rain suits over the top. Nothing heated. I used Skiing gloves, and the bike has heated grips, wife used winter bike riding gloves, her hands were cold all the time, my hands were ok.
We were warm enough till about 2 degC. Below 2 degC we got cold and stopped at every fuel station to warm up inside and drink something warm. The coldest temprature we rode in was -5, for about half a day, and this was just not fun at all. We were shivering.
The road conditions were icy too, but luckily in short sections. I lowered my tire pressure to about 15-18PSI (instead of 38PSI normally). Not sure if that actually helped, but mentally it gave me some piece of mind, and the bike never skided. I was on normal tires, while many cars down there were using studded tires. I wondered if you can get studded tires for bikes other than Speedway.
The GS strugled to start each morning, one time the battery was dead.

This is my little experience of cold weather riding, but by the sound of it nothing compare to what you guys in the North are experiencing!

Good luck mate, and dont go unprepared.
I've heard that Sjaak Lucasen has riden his R1 up to Prudhoe Bay in winter, so I guess it is possible.

johan

I agree winter biking in Scandinavia can be fun, but the temperatures here are usually nowhere near as cold as in the eastern part of Russia. Siberia is among the coldest places on Earth in midwinter, so its a whole different ballgame.

The preparations we do here in Scandinavia would probably be insufficient for that region, I think. You will have to find the proper solutions to deal with that kind of cold, or your journey won´t be enjoyable (unless you like torturing yourself!) and it could also be very dangerous.

So especially if you´re not used to winter riding, and come from a warm climate, I´d advice to think about it very carefully. It may be do-able, somehow, but it is a huge challenge, and not to be underestimated.

In my opinion an 800cc bike is also a bit heavy for riding on snow and ice. On the upside, you should be able to find proper tyres for it, and can add studs to them. The thread pattern should be almost like an enduro or motocross tyre, so that wet snow wont block it so easily. And then how you can manage tyre life (not forgetting the studs) when riding partly on open tarmac, is yet another challenge.

Thanks everyone for your tips / advice etc. The general consensus seems to be throw this in the "too hard basket". I am thinking a big tall glass of 'harden the f--k up' is needed.

What is the likelihood of being able to procure the gear I need in Japan / Vladivostok for increased output of alternator, tyres, studs, cold weather battery, Gerbings heated liners etc?

I am gonna pull the Japan arrival date back from December to November 09 and allow a week or two to kit the bike as per the above. Hard to get cold weather equipment in sunny Brisbane (32 deg C this week).

Is anyone keen to get in on this? Or am I just suicidal? I was thinking if it all smacked of effort after the first 100km out of Vlad I'd throw the bike on the trans-siberian to Lake Baikal and have a go from there heading west to Kazakstan etc. This is part of my RTW from Brisbane to London via Cape Town.

I will only be doing this if I deem it practical on my F650 riding solo with no side car. I won't plan on camping in Russia although I will have cooking equipment, fuel bladder (650km range all up), sleeping bag & tent etc.

Alternative to Bangkok - Tokyo (& Russia) is Bangkok - Kathmandu which would be a serious short-cut and not preferable. I have to be in London by October '10 so delaying the Russia stint for summer is not an option.

Thanks again.
Ciao
Dave

Dave,

I do not think anyone of us who have replied want you to chuck it in...
- we just want to see you make the whole trip; alive -


To get a vehicle remade for the trip in Japan or Vladivostok should not be any problem at all; think of the commersial value and goodwill accounts. I would not be surpriced if the Ural and/or Chang Jiang Factory would give you a lot of help in return of the commersial value.


http://www.trelleborgtyres.co.uk/sho...s/image_32.jpg
http://www.trelleborgtyres.co.uk/sho...s/image_33.jpg
Trelleborg Winter Friction Studded Dirt Bike Tires - Tires Review - Dirt Rider Magazine
Trelleborg Reifenübersicht, Markenreifen aus Schweden

__________________
Drive Safely,
Albert

Hey Dave,

Admirable attitude, not many people here are going to fault you for it.

The way I look at it though, it’s not a question of whether you can, it’s whether you have the time and resources to execute it while keeping the risks at a manageable level.

As a rough comparison I wandered up north in Canada to Tuktoyuktuk last year. It was about 6,000 km with 1/3 bare pavement, 1/3 mixed pavement/snow/ice, and 1/3 ice. Lowest daytime riding temp was -28.5C, average riding temp likely in the teens. It's a lot of logistics though and helps if you have suffered through any other random winter pursuits such as snowmobiling, back country skiing, winter camping, mountaineering, etc. If a person hasn't, not sure if I would recommend the trans siberian as a trip to try first to work the bugs out of the planning.

1. Q: What is the likelihood of being able to procure the gear I need in Japan / Vladivostok?
A: Can't say for certainty about Japan, but almost no chance of getting the gear you need in Vlad. There are severe limits as to what one can get for standard bike things there, unique items would be almost no chance and the language and cultural barriers would make it extremely time consuming. There is no way I would leave home without being completely outfitted.

2. Q: I am gonna pull the Japan arrival date back from December to November 09
A: The average temperature during the year in a city along your route (i.e. Ulan Ude) is: January -27 | February -18 | March -9 | April +1 | May +9 | June +18 | July +20 | August +22 | September +10 | October 0 | November -11 | December –19. Should make it more bearable, but I’d be also worried about avoiding snowfall rather than just temperatures.

3. Q: I was thinking if it all smacked of effort after the first 100km out of Vlad I'd throw the bike on the trans-siberian to Lake Baikal and have a go from there heading west to Kazakstan etc.
A: The road heads north to Khabarovsk for about 800 km and then it head east for another ~2,500 km to Ulan Ude. Soon after Khab the road turns to gravel, very few towns, and the road is poorly, if at all maintained. In winter, likely little or no plowing so you would be reliant on vehicle traffic to compact any snowfall. Snowfall and winddrifts are mortal enemies of bikers. If you encountered this on a non-side car bike, plan for some scary riding and some crashes.

In regards to Kazakstan, you may want to take a good, long look at the route and the elevations you would cross. It's one thing to ride across the subartic taiga, and a whole other thing to ride at changing elevations and through mountain passes.

4. Q: I will only be doing this if I deem it practical on my F650 riding solo with no side car. I won't plan on camping in Russia although I will have cooking equipment, fuel bladder (650km range all up), sleeping bag & tent etc.

A: It's possible, but in my opinion not practical. The road may be fine, and you may encounter a low snow year and make it across to Moscow (which is ~9,000 km of winter riding from Vlad) but you have to be self sufficient and prepared for bad weather as well and in that case you end carrying winter specific gear. It’s expensive, and not that transferable to standard riding.

5. Q: Alternative to Bangkok - Tokyo (& Russia) is Bangkok - Kathmandu which would be a serious short-cut and not preferable. I have to be in London by October '10 so delaying the Russia stint for summer is not an option.

A: Weather is a huge factor in deciding which routes are feasible. There is plenty to see in Asia in the Northern Hemisphere winter as you work your way across. You may want to give this option some serious consideration even though it is not your preferred option.

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If I had to choose between a bike trip to Nepal&India or Siberia in the winter, now that would be an easy one.....

It wouldnt be without complications to do that either, India´s a bit tough country to travel, but lots and lots to see & do... and at least you wouldnt need an astronaut´s gear.