If racks are the weak point then who makes good racks?

Short answer: no one makes good racks for all bikes as bikes, riding styles and loads vary.

IMO racks become a weak point because they get overstressed for the conditions encountered (too much weight and /or too rough roads). Most easily solved by taking less, using light gear and slowing down, but of course that is easy to say.
Problem is, a weak point can also include a bike's rear subframe which is part of the rack's structure and on some bikes is rather skimpy. My last bike was like this but had a rather ingenious rack that took the weight right off the subframe.

The best subframe is one that is intelligently designed for the bike and intended use - such a thing will not always be a one-size-fits-all off the shelf, but overall I think the two designs below are a good start (L: OTShelf; R: handmade).

There's also a good HUBB discussion with lots of ideas here.

Ch

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Good point.
In my case, XT1200Z.
Gravel tracks will be the worst off road scenario and my riding style will put minimum stress on the gear ie, pottering.
Loads - average European touring / camping, 2 x med size panniers and a roll bag on top.

I'm going for hard panniers (soft panniers on smaller bike ) with "rounded" corners and I'm looking at Jesse 9" Safari II, Zega Pro2 31/38 or something very similar.
For my use I don't suppose it would matter which, but the Jesse racks are not too good, right?

I agree that with hard cases rounded corners are a good idea (a mate who left his spleen in the Western Desert would agree, but back then we could only DIY box-shaped alu boxes).

I've not heard that Jesse racks are weak but I've never used his rack and hard case set up for long and hard enough. Some options like the Quick Click are hardly racks at all, but chunky milled plate clamps on which the cases are suspended from sturdy lockable mounts.

I happen to know Al J as a mate and that 'ingenious rack' I mentioned in the previous post was a soft baggage prototype of his I used last year. I get the impression he puts in a lot more thought into the engineering of hard motorcycle luggage and what a travelling rider actually needs than some - for example wrt slimness, proper locks that can't get knocked off with a rock, or the ability to securely slide a case forward on the rack when riding solo (better CoG - Odyssey system). So many racks I see have the box permanently fixed way back, even behind the spindle, to accommodate pillions. That must be done I suppose but most adv touring is undertaken solo where tight CoG has real benefits on bike handling.

Also, JL sticks to one thing: hard motorcycle luggage. Just because AM is currently all the rage they haven't used the brand to diversify into monogrammed handlebar muffs, overpriced bags to slip into their cases and so on. That milled oil filter wrench is the only exception, afaik.

I just had a look at the Jesse XT1200Z page; Odyssey system looks pretty solid to me and I assume the 12's subframe is solid too (XT660Zs certainly are).
I am sure you'll find some Jesse Luggage/XT1200Z users' opinions on advrider.

Ch

I too am a Jesse fan and friend. But more than 10 years ago following the
Silk Road with friends, was T - boned in the Jesse. Bent the outer metal into
The inner, ie. touching. Knocked me 180 degrees. 2up. Not one bit of rack damage
Solid. On a gsa 1150 adv.
Also on a Dakar Elefant...crashed so many times the Jesse corners got rounder!!
Never a rack problem. I probably have 300,000 miles or more with them and
Never an issue. They are bullitproof, so to speak.
Allen.
(Hi Chris.)

Thanks for the info and advice guys, most appreciated.

I outfitted my GS with Jesse panniers; a year and almost 50,000 miles later, I am disappointed that the lids are cracking at the corners. Talked to Jesse about that, I was even more disappointed to hear them say they would repair them or better yet, just buy new lids (at $75 a piece). I have asked two riders with Jesses if they have had any problems with theirs, upon checking, they were both very surprised to find their lids were cracked through too. The Jesses have been good for my situation, but if they leak and the company doesn't stand behind them, I really don't have as much need for them as I thought I might.

Chris,

There are some really interesting cases coming out of Bulgaria and Turkey these days, which does not look like to be poor quality.

Casper

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I've used both soft luggage (Oxford) and Suzuki's own on a K7. An outright preference is hard to pin down but I'd say hard luggage if you're camping (the boxes have a lot of uses other than being panniers) and soft panniers if you're not. I think a top box is too useful as a secure 'holdall' to dump/swap out for a bag.

FYI total capacity of the Suzuki panniers + top box is 115 litres (c2007). The box is 48 litres and the panniers are 32 and 35 litres. If you put the tent on the seat (in a pacsafe for security) then 115 litres is plenty for several weeks away.

On making your bike + soft luggage more secure just throw a lightweight bike cover over it.

Like others here I've been surprised at how heavy alu boxes are. If off-road bike touring is any way similar to mountain bike touring then extra dead weight on the frame is best avoided.

I'm researching panniers for my DR650 and still undecided. The pros and cons of soft vs hard luggage have been discussed, but I haven't seen much about the plastic Mule Pack panniers. They seem to be a good alternative with some advantages over aluminum boxes. Anyone have experience with these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u87XmcFlRig

I use these. Couldn't be happier:
Super Deluxe SaddlePacks

Don't expect Paul to comment. He doesn't answer e-mails unless it's "new buyers". Also had problems with top box not fitting "replacement" rear rack. Was told to just reposition feet attachment. When that didn't work, never again got a reply from MM. In the end had to come up with my own solution.

Everything MM is overpriced, after sales service is rubbish but the boxes alone are robust and (imho) functionally designed better than Touratech's best offering.

For anyone starting new, best to pair Touratech racks and Metal Mule pannier frames.

Don't use the Holan company. Very good product but I got really ripped off by this company. Before paying they were great. Once I paid they stopped communicating with me, took 8 wks to deliver not he 10 days they said! Not all was in the delivery and then they would not give me a full refund for the product not delivered.
sad as the product is well mand. Just appear to lack customer service (once you have paid) or ethics.

Just reading this section with interest as I got clattered off my gsa 1200lc a couple of weeks ago by a "u" turner who "didn't see me"... anyway..she hit me hard on the left and sent me skating down the road on the left side of the bike...I had a touratech soft bag on my front frame with my disk lock in...that was torn to pieces but absorbed some of the impact and I had bmw alloy panniers..all 3.. the photos show the damage to the pannier which took a huge whack and a long slide down a pot holed road..... sadly the 14 plate bike is a write off but the pannier will straighten and live to tell more stories.....panniers have done 62000 miles on all terrain...need I say more.....

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There is always this option.....all colours available.....

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