- there are maybe 10 different tours in the area in the mean time

Caramba, sounds busier than Algeria right now! I wonder how many of those 10 groups include foreign (European tourist) vehicles like the ones which got pinched - not many I imagine? This is what i meant earlier; grabbing a local Troopy or two would be seen as too provocative.

Ch

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Morocco Overland 4 pre-order for Xmas • Trans Morocco Trail

Right, I'm new to this site, and this thread - despite being involved with it...

After reading your chinese whispers, I thought I'd set the record straight and tell you what happened here. There were actually 4 cars in total, one belonging to our guide, Mohammed, one nicely prepped Toyota Land Cruiser HZJ 78 that belonged to Frank (ze german, there was only one) and two landrovers belonging to the remaining 3 British travellers, one of which was a '94 Discovery 300tdi - once mine!

Right, we didn't have a military escort - reasons why will become apparent. We DID have permission (for dates 16th/01/08 - 29th/01/08). We suffered numerous delays with our tour company, Minamar Hotels, eventually recieving our pemissions on the 23rd/01/08 - 12 days after we had arranged the tour to start. This initial mix-up caused the problem with our military escort - there wasn't one for us to collect at Daklha because he had shown up on the 16th, wondering if we were going to show up at all he buggered off home a few days later. When we turned up on the 23rd they said "three days for soldier, go away!". Its the 23rd remember, three days takes us to the 26/27th, leaving 2 days to get to the gilf and back legitimatly ('scuse spelling).

With not much time left on Visa's, vehicle custom docs etc, the decision was taken to leave for a quick trip to the gilf, have a look round and return to Daklha by the 29th to continue with our onward travel plans (libya, Tunisia, Algeria, etc), it was after all, what we had come to Egypt to see, Mummy's dont quite cut it you see...!

26/01/08: Third morning into our mini exped 4km north west of the "8 bells" sign in the desert floor, its 09:15. Tibs, who was companion in my car said: "Im sure I can hear a car engine..." Who could that be driving like that at this time in the morning we thought, not expecting to see or hear anyone during our time there...

About 30 seconds later a Toyota HJZ 75 pick-up with 8 jundee's sat on it appeared out of nowhere - following our tyre tracks! Its odd when something like this happens, Im not new to it, but you kind of just stand there staring their way in odd fascination wondering what the hell is going on.

Obviously we were breaking some rules being there, as we were still in egypt, thoughts first swung toward them being part of an Egyptian military patrol, unlikley we thought, as they hopped off their wagon, cocking their Ak 47's, SLR's (yes, formelly weapons issued to the british army...) pistols and the vehicle mounted PMK machine gun..! An imtimidating site I think you'll agree, as they walked towards us ushering us (under the threat of being shot) to a little spot out of the way.

Though they could only communicate to a basic level with Mohammed (entirely different dialect), their immediate enquiries ran to asking us where our mobile phones, GPS, "thuraya's" and radios were. Then another truck showed up, with another 7 or 8 guys on it, thats when things started to deteriorate from "bastards got my ipod" to "um, are they going to kill us".

It would have been easy for them to do that, and if anyone had raised a fuss they probably would have, it only takes one of them to think it's a good idea to shoot you and it would soon esclate. Its easy to bury 5 bodies but guides landcruiser had its bonnet up with tools and parts laying about, it was probably apparent to them that they weren't going to get it started and it's harder to bury/hide a car that wont start so it was largely ignored, along with the other Land Rover, due to it being a '71 series three SWB (too small do drive bys or raid Ndjamena - Chad capital) FYI: you can fit 1000 miles of fuel in them...

The two toyotas had trouble starting in the morning due to a bad batch of fuel and some bloody cold nights, (this was why Mohammeds bonnet was up), so it became customary to start the cars in the morning to see that they would start. (the Land Rover Tdi's managed just fine thankyou very much...), this is why the keys were in the ignitions of three of the four vehicles, and promptly the Land Cruiser belonging to Frank and my Discovery were fired up, though not driven away initially.



They continued to search the vehicles, they took most things that looked like they were of any value (though missing some sterling) they also did some strange things like take one of my mates shoes (leaving the other), they took the pouch for a leatherman multitool, but left the leatherman??? and occasionally missed really obvious things like the digital camera left on the dash of one of the remaining cars!

There were two sentries stood watching over us at all times, periodically searching the groung around us to see that we hadn't buried anything though they missed my camera, which is how I got the image of them being driven over the horizon... Overall, it was quite a well run outfit, there was it seemed, two sections with their respective commanders, a platoon sergeant and a platoon commander (who wandered round menacingly with a 3' machete) to whom they all reported. They wore green and khakhi desert pattern DPM kit, long olive overcoats, unlaced boots and olive/drab headscarves if you were wondering, not all black like the baddies from "300".

After about half an hour, (a long time to ponder your last moments you start to think...), they quickly packed up what they wanted and left, leaving our personal kit lying around on the floor... which in franks case, amounted to a couple of sleeping bags and some trousers. I still had my wallet and a camera, some clothes... but thats about it.

It took us 24hrs of fairly relentless driving to get back to daklha, where we reported to daklha police station, cue the shite-storm that we have been riding ever since. Of the numerous autorities/agencys we have dealt with since, we are still not sure which ones actually believe us. Most of them are too keen to keep their desks clean, sweep the whole incident under the carpet or move the problem over to someone else. The main problem lying with the military and border agencies.

I agree we were in the wrong by being there with no military escort, but regardless of whether we would have taken one, we would still have been in the same location at the same time. If you talk to the right people, they will inform you that a soldier is there merely to ensure you dont stray into countries you shouldn't be in... He doesn't take a weapon, sat phone, or radio and his presence could possibly lead to a negative outcome were he ever to encounter a situation such as this... Whether it counts or not, It is my opinion that fault largly lies with the people that are meant to keep Egypt's borders secure. Dont tell me that they're too big/difficult etc. The British manged with camels and model-T fords. But then, they were British...

If you have plans to visit the Gilf in the future, enjoy it. Its a great place... There is not much advice I can give other than hide important/valuable things when you lay up. If you do hear cars, get in and go as fast as possible, who else would show up at your campsite.

I think it will be a while before they strike again, and I hope it wont be a fatal encounter, though a fatal incident is the only thing that would make the Egyptian autorities take notice and have the military put some proper border security patrols in...
Reply to/slag us off in the forums as much as you want, I was there, I know what happened and I have told you now. You dont have to believe me either, though I will post that picture soon,

p.s Chris Scott and Richard Washington, thanks for your refreshing and open-minded outlook on this incident... Alec

If you have questions I might answer them, but I wont return to this forum for a while the internet is still crap in Cairo...

Thanks for that interesting and very useful description which must have been a fraught experience.

to the HUBB BTW.

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Dave

Hello All,

Having spoken to Alec (jerboa) and Frank in Cairo, here are my reflections:

I have no doubt the incident happened, as, where and when described by jerboa. The critical question is who were these guys, and what is the lilkelihood of something similar happening again.

The route running up east of Uweinat and west of the Gilf Kebir has been in use by people smugglers taking up mainly somali and eritrean refugees to Benghazi (and then dumping them on boats and sending them off to Italy) since at least 2003. The Libyans intensely patrol the route between Uweinat and Kufra (I have encountered three separate patrols over 2 days), so going to the east of Uweinat and then up along the Gilf and the serir is a convenient and 'safe' bypass. I have once had a close encounter, they use sand coloured HJ 75 pickups very similar to those described in the incident. Alec & Frank could not say wether the pickups were petrol or diesel, though this would be highly significant. If petrol, most probably the cars are from libya (hardly any diesel cars there), if diesel then Sudan (or more unlikely Chad).

Unfortunately with all the illicit traffic going on in the border areas (and the Egyptian authorities pretending it doesn't exist), it was just a matter of time before someone came up with the enterprising thought of diversifying. The people smugglers must have accomplices both in Sudan (they have to bring the 'cargo' all the way accross the populated areas) and Libya (again, on the north coast they must be able to dodge the authorities), and since they use petrol cars, I would not be surprised if some enterprising Baharyans are also involved, as regular dumps of fuel and water are needed deep in the desert (the platform of the pickups is fully loaded with 25-30 people standing (!) all the way). It is hard to tell if there is a direct connection, but the smugglers are likely the source of the information that there is business to be made in the Gilf. The attackers appear to be sudanese, but the outfit could be controlled from either Sudan or Libya. (Or even Chad, the Ennedi or Tibesti are no farther away than the populated areas of Sudan)

Obviously the fact whether the permits were in order or not, or whether there was an officer or not is completely irrelevant from our perspective. The way the encounter happened clearly indicates that they were after whoever was at the end of the tracks, and did not care much wether there is an officer present or not. Unless of course they knew exactly who they were after. The fact that this group was semi-illegally in the desert does raise a flag, especially since they originated from Baharyia (see my thoughts above), were the robbers actually alerted... ? Obviously it could have been expected that the egyptian authorities will do nothing in this case, however this is something we will never be able to tell.

Summing it all up, with all the illicit traffic in the area, unfortunately this was something waiting to happen, though I was keeping my fingers crossed it wouldnt. It did. With the present success, my assessment is that it will happen again, maybe not next month, not even this year, but eventually it will. I would agree with Chris that possibly foreign vehicles are in greater danger, because egyptians will raise a bigger fuss if one or more of their own vehicles are taken.

As for the authorities, I'm sure in good egyptian fashion they will emphasize that everything happened only because the group was not 'protected' by an officer, they will deny all responsibility and might actually do nothing - after all nobody got hurt, and only a couple of foreigners lost a few posessions - that is nothing to worry about, when there is money to be made on others. The current word from Cairo is that permits are issued as normal, our own permits were issued this past monday (the only thing is that now a new paper from the ministry of environment is needed, because the Gilf has been declared a 'protected zone' - of course, you guessed right, this paper costs more money...). I have received reports that the military closed off the area south of N24 and west of E24 30 (this is all the Gilf and Uweinat) but in Cairo nobody seems to have heared about this, certainly not those at the military issuing permits.

Of course if another incident happens, especially if someone gets hurt or an egyptian vehicle is taken, this will change immediately. I see two possible reactions: one is to suspend issuing permits immediately, the other is to insist on an armed escort. If the latter happens, that is a firm no go for me. It is one thing to get robbed, and another thing to get killed because the guys see the gun and shoot first before asking questions. Let their be no doubt in anyone's mind - the presence of an officer serves two and only two purposes: more importantly, an excuse for the hefty fee, and secondly to keep track and report on the movements and activities of the foreigners. An officer cannot (and will not) do anything in case of an attack, he has no means of communicaton, no equipment, nothing. Even his mug and sleeping bag needs to be provided by the group. And even if he is armed, the other guys much better know how to use an AK47, and have probably already killed in anger.

From now on, going to the Gilf will be pretty much like russian roulette, though the odds are much better than 1:6. Once encountering the robbers, there is nothing one can do, but stay calm and accept the situation. Tracks cannot be hidden, our usually heavily laden vehicles cannot outrun the pickups (especially not if they are as I suspect HJ petrol ones), and fleeing only risks getting shot at. It appears that these guys are primarily after the cars (like in other areas of the Sahara), other posessions are just an added bonus. The big question is if there would have been four good cars, would have they taken all four. If so, it is a long walk back... My reccommendation: if you chose to go, set up a system of communication each morning/evening, giving your position and intentions for the day. If a call is missed, that should be the sign for the other end to raise the alarm.

Thanks for your views Andras. I've yet to meet any but do people smugglers drive around in 'technicals'? I would have thought keeping a low profile is higher on their agenda. The only 'smugglers' (or more probably border dodging Sudanese guest workers) we met one time nearby at KED were initially as scared of us as we were of them. Sounds more like a rogue militia band to me. From 8 Bells Sudan is only 100km away. Or, as someone suggested to me, the need for 4x4s for the N'Djamena rebel 'invasion' ('300 vehicles' reported) last week may have been a cause.

As you say, as long as they don't start giving the escort soldier a gun, tourists being driven in local cars won't risk losing much. Though it may not be everybody's idea of a holiday, it didnt stop people visiting the Tenere (until recently) - another great part of the Sahara that for a long time was not worth risking with your own vehicle.

Ch

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Hello all,

I've heard from Mariusz Budek who runs trips to the Gilf from Baharyia (www.egyptian-sahara.com) about the latest developments.

Apart from confirming the incident, he also pointed out a possibility that the local smuggling operators were involved, which may also point to the attackers having a new base established along the escape route.

According to the rumours he heard, the Ministry is considering adding a second officer to the group and charging extra for a permit ('protected zone' fee mentioned by András?)

There's something that makes me wonder. Mariusz and András both mention close and frequent encounters with smugglers, each being aware of the other's presence and giving each other a wide berth. Now, apart from the fact mentioned by Chris (that the incident took place in preparation to the Chad insurgency), what else has changed in the region to upset the relative calm that had existed so far, forcing/encouraging the smugglers/locals to hijack tourists' cars that not easily fit the part of 'technicals'?

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Roman (UK)

Drive an old banger, lift the bonnet up when camping, fit a hidden fuel cut off switch, bury/hide the valuables and cover your tracks

Anyone know if those anti-theft satilite location devices work in africa?

Richard

Piracy on the high desert is just another business, with a supply and demand, risks and rewards. Setting up the logistics for the odd tourist that wondered that way every four months or so was simply not worth the effort. Now with a continuous flow of groups, somebody considered that this is a good time to set up the enterprise.

The link with the smugglers is pure speculation at the moment, though a plausible one. Anyone having the scruples to take away a life's savings from those wretched refugees, then dump them on a dinghy that is hardly suitable to cross a stream not to say the Mediterranean will probably be willing to do other nasty things. However I don't think the smugglers themselves were directly responsible, just may have passed the word to their Sudanese 'helpers', either specifically on this group, or just a general idea that there is business to be made.

The smugglers actually do make a good effort of staying out of limelight. Our encounter some years ago was by chance, quite far to the west of the normal route running from Uweinat to Wadi Sora. There were four or five pickups with people scattered about, we first thought it was a military patrol. As soon as they spotted us, the people started running towards the pickups, and they started moving away. Realising who they were, we started off in the opposite direction, but one of the pickups raced after us, with their petrol engine they easily caught up. There were three guys, mixed libyan & sudanese in front, two armed with AK47-s, and about a dozen somalis clinging on for dear life in the back. There were a few tense moments before a few greetings were exchanged, then they zoomed off after the others. The pickups only carried people, which means they must have regular dumps along the route from Darfur to Benghazi (or wherever they swap with the northern accomplices). With double tanks, a petrol HJ can do about 500-600 kilometres in the desert between fueling.

No, they are just plain sand coloured HJ 75 (or 78?) pickups, the kind you regularly see on the roads in Libya (and also used by the Libyan police/military). Of course changing them to a 'technical' takes only a few bolts and some welding skill...

A bit off topic, but here're some interesting article elaborating on the role of Toyota technicals during the Libya - Chad conflict in 1984:

The Great Toyota War - TIME

BTW, There is even a computer game called "Chad vs Libya: Toyota_Wars".

And here's what is required to turn a LC pickup into a 'technical':
http://tinyurl.com/3drbod
Not quite sure how a Land Rover Discovery would fit into this role, though.

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Roman (UK)

Never even head of the word in this use until an email last week and then another mention in the Sunday papers in a feature on Somali (the homeland of 'technicals').
According to Wiki, origin comes from when Red Cross etc where repeatedly held up by bandits in machine gun jeeps. Back at HQ they claimed 'technical expenses'.

Ch

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Morocco Overland 4 pre-order for Xmas • Trans Morocco Trail

... but this sounds good enough for me. From now I'm claiming technical expenses for everything.

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pigapitcha

http://www.jljphotography.co.uk

Hello All,

Just back from a trip to Uweinat and the Gilf, can confirm everything is pretty normal, all the rumors about restrictions, closed areas, etc. are simply untrue. The only change, which does suggest an element of nervousness from the side of the authorities, is that our escorting officer was called every day (sometimes twice) on the Thuraya, which now every operator must have. It is getting quite busy down there, we met two other groups at Uweinat while there.

One noticeable change is that the Sudanese trading trucks (the 'taxi sudani') started using the route down the western Gilf then passing down east of Uweinat, bypassing Uweinat completely. I have no information, but I suspect the route via western Uweinat to the Darfur is now closed, and the trucks do the run from Dongola via Selima to Kufra pretty much along the route of the old WWII convoys (sometime using the same tracks, which they are deepening into ever worse ruts). We saw a single truck passing way out of Wadi Sora, but I was told that sometimes as many as 3-4 pass in a single day. Certainly the desert is full of fresh tracks, mainly of the huge six-wheelers. Whether this is with or without the tacit agreement of the egyptian authorities is anybody's guess.

Another raid at Gebel Uweinat. Text in English and pictures at the homepage from Carlo Bergmann:

Report on a raid at Gebel Uweinat in February

Possible way in Google-Earth



Who wants to see in Google-Earth, clic the globe and "save under ..." than use it in Google Earth.

Raid-in-Sudan.kml, 7 KB, ----------------------->

Greetings

Ulrich