Indeed, the answer to our questions was either 'interdit' or 'comme vous voulez'. It was soon clear that there was not much to choose from though... (except departure times, lunch stops, etc.)

We understood that another group (with guide) did the Graveyard Piste the other way round (south to north), so it does not seem to be completely of limits.

The only problem with meeting the guide only in the south, is that the agency might get in trouble for leaving you unescorted, so they might be hesitant to organize this.

thanks for your report, good to read. The kidnap is a worry... giving out rewards for kidnapping is a bad development in an area with high unemployment.. I still wonder how they managed to kidnap the spanish tourist at assekrem and get him across the border without getting caught before.. quite a few tourists, guides and army posts around that area

Beginning of December 2024 we decided to try to get to South Algeria. As visa timings were very short, and it is in the south, we chose to go via an agent, one of the ones recommended by Chris Scott in sahara overland. With only two weeks before our travel date this was pretty ambitious, but we got it one day before travelling. We got an approval for boarding, not visa, and then went through the visa process upon arrival in Algers. Travelling by plane from Algers to Tam at this time of they year is a struggle... air algers doesnt have enough planes, so this flight is pretty fully booked (we couldnt book from netherlands). Our and our guide's hope was for no-shows... and they werent after 12 hours of waiting at the airport (there are direct and indirect flights to Tam), so we slept a bit at the airport and flew next day to Djanet at 0530 in the end, to go with a driver to Tam the next day and start our tour there.
We did Assekrem, and from there to the beautiful Tahifet wadi, Tazrouk. We had planned to camp around Serouenout, but our local guide said he wasnt keen to camp there due to illegal gold diggers. First time we heard about gold in algeria, so when we had cell reception we checked on the internet... and indeed its an issue with Mali and Niger gangs gearing up with locals to dig for gold at night. Military is doing lots of raids in the desert and its not funny of course to get caught in the middle of this. Its seems Bordj El Haouas is the epic centre, with lots of men from Mali/Niger waiting to be picked up for work, diesel generators and jack hammers on sale.. and fast petrol pick-ups around (it seems newer petrol toyotas are not allowed in algeria as they can outrun the police and military....but we always felt safe.
We visited 70km west of Djanet, north of the main road, some very nice scenery, off road/tracks ending around 40km west, easy to follow tracks there. Bit of wadi rum vibes in that area and seems to be on the day trip from Djanet with lots of traffic.
Overall no (real) CP encountered, whereas this Tam Djanet road was closed 2 years ago, and one year ago required escort. Travelling east. It still has two major dirt track sections, one starting 72km west of Idles for about 75km, then some 20km tarmac, then another 25km dirt track, and then tarmac all the way to Djanet.

Being a passenger, rather then driving has his pro and cons.. Pro is no stress, great food cooked three times a day, safety and no issues with police, plenty of breaks and lot of time to detox from our hurried lives and phone...and real value for money. Cons... less exciting... sometimes outright boring.. slowish driving offroad, and the guide is actually more a cook and points out where to drive and camp, than an expert guide on nature and history..

Last point to share is the local hospital/clinic in Djanet. I had climbed some rocks, fell on the way down and slit open my hand requiring 5 stitches. Local clinic was very efficient, but police will come straight away requiring a full report and our guide had to go to police station twice...maybe because of what happened last year in Djanet? Overall did a good job on my hand I can say two months later.

Will go back again, really keen to come with own car and arrange guide with car , from Tunisia south to djanet, Tam then west to Tindouf, mauritania, west sahara and up to Morocco. Our guide believes this is possible (guided in the south).

I am also from the Netherlands and would like some more info on the visa application in the Hague, as I plan a trip later this year. How difficult is the application without an invitation of an agency? How many hotel reservations are required? How long does the application take? Did the embassy ask extra documents for bringing your own car to Algeria? Thanks a lot

Thank You for this, Jabal FC,
On your travels in Algeria did you see any overlanders going south to Mali-Niger-Nigeria?
(I'm planning a trip in Africa during Winter 2025 and it looks like the route may be too risky for kidnap/bandits.)

No tourist has crossed into Niger since 2011 - and even that was sketchy. I very much doubt you'll get very far south of Tam.
As for northern Mali, it's been unsafe for much longer. It won't take much Googling to find out why.

To cross the desert these days go via Morocco coast or Tindouf to RIM.
https://sahara-overland.com/routes/

__________________
Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail

Thanks Chris,
If my 2025 winter start goes ahead I'll look at Tindouf to RIM, which looks really interesting. Mauritania looks both interesting and challenging too (followed by some more months heading south.) And I'll need to check the current security situation again then.
I don't fancy Egypt again, although ItchyBoots has put Saudi Arabia back on the map, so the alternative may be Jeddah to Port Sudan.
BTW I did an AI search on the web about possible routes, and it didn't have your nugget of information about nobody having done the central route via Algeria for years. I'll paste the output below, because it does have some visa cost calculations and it may be useful to someone:

================FROM CHAT GPT ===============

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You said

Help me plan a solo motorcycle overland trip from north africa to South Africa this winter. With ongoing wars and security concerns, what routes can be done (E.g. West AFrica, or Algeria to Tamanrasset, or Egypy to Sudan?

Copilot said

Planning a solo motorcycle overland trip from North Africa to South Africa is an exciting adventure! Given the current security concerns and ongoing conflicts in some regions, it's essential to choose a safe and feasible route. Here are some options:

East Coast Route

This is generally considered the safest and most straightforward route:

Egypt to Sudan: Start in Egypt and cross into Sudan. The border crossing at Wadi Halfa is a common route.
Sudan to Ethiopia: Travel through Sudan to Ethiopia. Be sure to check the current security situation in Ethiopia, as it can be unstable at times.
Ethiopia to Kenya: Continue from Ethiopia to Kenya. The Moyale border crossing is a popular choice.
Kenya to Tanzania: Travel through Kenya to Tanzania. The roads are relatively well-maintained.
Tanzania to Zambia: Continue south through Tanzania to Zambia.
Zambia to South Africa: Finally, travel through Zambia to South Africa.
West Coast Route

This route is more challenging due to security concerns in some regions:

Morocco to Mauritania: Start in Morocco and travel south to Mauritania. The border crossing at Nouadhibou is commonly used.
Mauritania to Senegal: Continue from Mauritania to Senegal.
Senegal to Mali: Travel through Senegal to Mali. Be cautious, as some areas in Mali can be dangerous.
Mali to Burkina Faso: Continue south to Burkina Faso.
Burkina Faso to Ghana: Travel through Burkina Faso to Ghana.
Ghana to Togo and Benin: Continue through Ghana to Togo and Benin.
Benin to Nigeria: Travel through Benin to Nigeria. Be aware of security concerns in some parts of Nigeria.
Nigeria to Cameroon: Continue from Nigeria to Cameroon.
Cameroon to Gabon: Travel through Cameroon to Gabon.
Gabon to Congo: Continue south to Congo.
Congo to Angola: Travel through Congo to Angola.
Angola to Namibia: Continue from Angola to Namibia.
Namibia to South Africa: Finally, travel through Namibia to South Africa.
Central Route

This route is less common and can be more dangerous:

Algeria to Niger: Start in Algeria and travel south to Niger. The route through Tamanrasset is an option, but be cautious of security concerns.
Niger to Chad: Continue from Niger to Chad.
Chad to Central African Republic: Travel through Chad to the Central African Republic.
Central African Republic to Democratic Republic of Congo: Continue south to the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Democratic Republic of Congo to Zambia: Travel through the Democratic Republic of Congo to Zambia.
Zambia to South Africa: Finally, travel through Zambia to South Africa.
Important Considerations

Security: Always check the latest travel advisories and security updates for each country you plan to visit.
Visas and Permits: Ensure you have the necessary visas and permits for each country.
Health: Make sure you have the required vaccinations and carry any necessary medications.
Motorcycle Maintenance: Be prepared for potential breakdowns and carry spare parts and tools.
Accommodation: Plan your accommodation in advance, especially in remote areas.
For more detailed information and route planning, you can refer to resources like Adventurism.tv and Yamaha Adventure.

Stay safe and enjoy your adventure! ????️????

You said

Compare the three routes above in terms of the total visa costs for an Irish citizen

Copilot said

Sure, let's break down the visa costs for an Irish citizen traveling through the three routes:

East Coast Route

Egypt: €25 for a single-entry visa.
Sudan: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Ethiopia: €40 for a single-entry visa.
Kenya: €50 for a single-entry visa.
Tanzania: €50 for a single-entry visa.
Zambia: €50 for a single-entry visa.
South Africa: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
Total Cost: €315

West Coast Route

Morocco: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
Mauritania: €55 for a single-entry visa.
Senegal: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
Mali: €70 for a single-entry visa.
Burkina Faso: €50 for a single-entry visa.
Ghana: €150 for a single-entry visa.
Togo: €20 for a single-entry visa.
Benin: €50 for a single-entry visa.
Nigeria: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Cameroon: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Gabon: €85 for a single-entry visa.
Congo: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Angola: €120 for a single-entry visa.
Namibia: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
South Africa: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
Total Cost: €900

Central Route

Algeria: €85 for a single-entry visa.
Niger: €60 for a single-entry visa.
Chad: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Central African Republic: €150 for a single-entry visa.
Democratic Republic of Congo: €100 for a single-entry visa.
Zambia: €50 for a single-entry visa.
South Africa: No visa required for stays up to 90 days.
Total Cost: €545

Summary

East Coast Route: €315
West Coast Route: €900
Central Route: €545
The East Coast Route is the most cost-effective in terms of visa fees. However, always check the latest visa requirements and fees, as they can change. Safe travels! ????️????

You said

What are the safety considerations for each route?

Copilot said

Safety is paramount when planning an overland motorcycle trip through Africa. Here are some key considerations for each route:

East Coast Route

Egypt to Sudan: Generally safe, but be cautious of political unrest and avoid border areas with Libya.
Sudan to Ethiopia: Check for updates on the security situation in Ethiopia, as it can be unstable.
Ethiopia to Kenya: The Moyale border crossing is popular, but the region can be volatile. Stay informed about local conditions.
Kenya to Tanzania: Relatively safe, but be cautious in remote areas and national parks.
Tanzania to Zambia: Safe, but ensure your motorcycle is well-maintained for long distances.
Zambia to South Africa: Generally safe, but be aware of wildlife and road conditions.
West Coast Route

Morocco to Mauritania: Safe, but avoid the Western Sahara region due to landmines.
Mauritania to Senegal: Safe, but be cautious of petty crime in urban areas.
Senegal to Mali: Mali has regions with high security risks due to terrorism and conflict. Avoid northern and central areas.
Mali to Burkina Faso: Similar to Mali, Burkina Faso has regions with high security risks. Stay updated on travel advisories.
Burkina Faso to Ghana: Ghana is relatively safe, but be cautious in border areas.
Ghana to Togo and Benin: Generally safe, but be aware of petty crime.
Benin to Nigeria: Nigeria has significant security concerns, including terrorism and kidnapping. Avoid high-risk areas.
Nigeria to Cameroon: Similar to Nigeria, Cameroon has regions with high security risks. Stay informed about local conditions.
Cameroon to Gabon: Gabon is relatively safe, but be cautious in remote areas.
Gabon to Congo: Congo has regions with high security risks. Avoid conflict zones.
Congo to Angola: Angola is generally safe, but be cautious of landmines in rural areas.
Angola to Namibia: Namibia is relatively safe, but be aware of wildlife and road conditions.
Namibia to South Africa: Generally safe, but be cautious in urban areas.
Central Route

Algeria to Niger: The route through Tamanrasset is an option, but be cautious of security concerns in the Sahara region.
Niger to Chad: Chad has regions with high security risks due to terrorism and conflict. Avoid high-risk areas.
Chad to Central African Republic: The Central African Republic has significant security concerns. Avoid conflict zones.
Central African Republic to Democratic Republic of Congo: The Democratic Republic of Congo has regions with high security risks. Stay informed about local conditions.
Democratic Republic of Congo to Zambia: Zambia is relatively safe, but be cautious in remote areas.
Zambia to South Africa: Generally safe, but be aware of wildlife and road conditions.
General Safety Tips

Avoid Conflict Zones: Always check the political stability of the areas you plan to visit and avoid regions with ongoing conflicts1.
Protect Yourself from Robbery: Carry copies of your official documents, use a "dummy wallet," and avoid displaying valuables1.
Health Precautions: Ensure you have the required vaccinations and carry any necessary medications2.
Vehicle Maintenance: Prepare your motorcycle for the journey and carry spare parts and tools3.
Emergency Planning: Stay connected and have a plan for emergencies1.
For more detailed safety tips, you can refer to resources like Africa Fevers and Tracks4Africa.

Stay safe and enjoy your adventure! ????️????

1africafevers.com2blog.tracks4africa.co.za3blog.tr acks4africa.co.za

You said

What are the most dangerous areas to avoid?

Copilot said

When planning your overland motorcycle trip through Africa, it's crucial to be aware of the most dangerous areas to avoid due to conflicts, terrorism, and high crime rates. Here are some of the most dangerous regions:

East Coast Route

Sudan: The ongoing conflict and political instability make certain areas, especially Darfur and the border regions, highly dangerous.
Ethiopia: The Tigray, Amhara, and Oromia regions face internal conflicts and ethnic tensions.
Kenya: The northeastern region near the Somali border is prone to terrorist attacks by Al-Shabaab.
West Coast Route

Mali: Northern and central Mali are highly dangerous due to terrorist activities and armed conflicts.
Burkina Faso: The northern and eastern regions face frequent attacks by Islamist militant groups.
Nigeria: The northeastern region is highly dangerous due to Boko Haram and other terrorist groups. The Niger Delta region also has high crime rates.
Cameroon: The Far North region near the Nigerian border is prone to terrorist attacks by Boko Haram.
Congo: The eastern regions face instability due to armed rebel groups and violent clashes.
Central Route

Algeria: The Sahara region, including Tamanrasset, can be dangerous due to banditry and terrorism.
Niger: The border regions with Mali and Libya face security concerns due to terrorist activities.
Chad: The Lake Chad region is highly dangerous due to Boko Haram and other terrorist groups.
Central African Republic: The entire country faces significant security concerns due to armed groups and frequent violence.
Democratic Republic of Congo: The eastern regions are highly dangerous due to armed rebel groups and violent clashes.
General Safety Tips

Stay Informed: Regularly check travel advisories and security updates for each country you plan to visit.
Avoid High-Risk Areas: Steer clear of regions with ongoing conflicts, terrorism, and high crime rates.
Travel in Groups: Whenever possible, travel with others for added safety.
Emergency Contacts: Keep a list of emergency contacts, including local embassies and consulates.
For more detailed information, you can refer to resources like Traveling Lifestyle and The World Bucket List.

Stay safe and enjoy your adventure! ????️????

You said

What are the main reasons these areas are considered dangerous?

Copilot said

The main reasons these areas are considered dangerous include:

East Coast Route

Sudan: Ongoing conflict and political instability, especially in regions like Darfur and the border areas1.
Ethiopia: Internal conflicts and ethnic tensions in regions like Tigray, Amhara, and Oromia1.
Kenya: Terrorist attacks by Al-Shabaab in the northeastern region near the Somali border1.
West Coast Route

Mali: Terrorist activities and armed conflicts in northern and central regions1.
Burkina Faso: Frequent attacks by Islamist militant groups in the northern and eastern regions1.
Nigeria: Terrorism by Boko Haram in the northeastern region and high crime rates in the Niger Delta1.
Cameroon: Terrorist attacks by Boko Haram in the Far North region1.
Congo: Instability due to armed rebel groups and violent clashes in the eastern regions1.
Central Route

Algeria: Banditry and terrorism in the Sahara region, including Tamanrasset1.
Niger: Security concerns due to terrorist activities in the border regions with Mali and Libya1.
Chad: Terrorism by Boko Haram and other groups in the Lake Chad region1.
Central African Republic: Significant security concerns due to armed groups and frequent violence1.
Democratic Republic of Congo: Armed rebel groups and violent clashes in the eastern regions1.
These regions face a combination of terrorism, armed conflicts, political instability, and high crime rates, making them dangerous for travelers. Always stay informed and check travel advisories before planning your trip.

1: African Leadership Magazine

1www.africanleadershipmagazine.co.uk

Your AI generated information is highly misleading in some cases, wholly incorrect in others. For example, the east coast route is neither "easy" nor "straightforward," and as of several weeks ago the Sudan border was closed. Furthermore, the Algeria/Niger route has been fully off-limits for years, as you've been told. The west coast route used by most people these days avoids both Mali and Burkina Faso, with good reason. Et cetera.

I'm not reading through your whole post, but I'm sure there are bits and pieces which are, in fact, true. The problem is how to make use of such a volume of information without fact-checking piece by piece, bit by bit. If you're going to do that, you might as well skip the AI part of your research entirely, because it's just going to get in the way.

I'm prepared to be shown incorrect about any or all of the above. Have fun, whatever you choose to do!

Interesting exercise – facts mixed with errors, as Mark observed, along with achingly obvious suggestions like 'Avoid high-risk areas.' while appearing to list them anyway. But visa costs are handy, as said.

Funnily enough, the other week I heard of young people using AI to plan their hols. That would never occur to me as the above rubbish is what I'd expect, once you get beyond 'plan me an inter rail tour of Europe's most popular cities'.

Luckily we have the excellent HUBB: just about the best source of easily accessible overland travel advice based on actual experiences. What a great idea!

West Coast via a specific list of countries is the only way to do trans Af right now. A tedious hurdle of visa apps. Example by a mate below. Went via Tindouf and currently in Angola.
https://share.garmin.com/VintageTenere.

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__________________
Morocco Overland 4 (2025) • Trans Morocco Trail