xfiltrate, very hard to see the relevance of that "research" into certain incidents in the US (over a period of many years) to this topic discussing constant police shakedowns on Argentinian highways.

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Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

Tony LEE , I have lived in Argentina for almost a decade I am and probably always will be a citizen of the United States of America. I am a property owner in the States and return each two years or so to look after my properties. I posted CATO Institute "research" because with each visit home (Arizona) I have personally experienced "shakedowns" by police that make the rank amateur police gang operating on that Ruta , whom I have also experienced first hand, look like Boy Scouts....

Are you in the USA? Have you been there long? Come on my friend do you not realize that the very isolated Ruta police corruption is like a candle in the wind when compared to the police state that is now the USA?

The stats I have provided are simply to give some comparable data with which to evaluate this thread.

I do welcome your comments , and would be pleased to learn your response to this post.

xfiltrate

My point was that while it is valid to compare like incidents between countries to give some measure of relativity, the type of incident portrayed in the 'research" bears no relationship whatsoever to those related in this thread - so I would ask again, what was the point of posting it. It is NOT relevant. You might just as well have posted statistics on the divorce rate in the USA or the number of postmen bitten by poodles. The police state that, according to some, exists in the USA does so simply because the democratically-elected government (on all levels) is apparently convinced that the majority of its citizens want it that way. Also hardly a topic relevant to the aims of HUBB forum though but you raised it, not me.

As for where and when I drive. So far about 12 months continuous driving in the US in 4-month blocks - most of it being on back roads and small towns and not on the interstates - plus three months in Mexico - also mostly not on toll roads - plus three months in Morocco and a lot of time and huge number of miles in 20 other countries and we have never, NEVER, come across any examples of improper conduct by police or other officials trying to make some money on the side out of fake driving offences. If it happens in Argentina, it will be the first time - and if it involves me being caught for a genuine traffic infringement, as happened in Morocco when I rolled through a stop sign, then I will pay the full fine in the correct manner and at the correct venue - but if it involves just an obvious shakedown, then there is no way they will get any pocket money out of me. Partly a matter of principle, but also because I don't want to visit the same situation on the next traveller to pass that way.

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Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

Tony Lee, thanks for your post. I was off target and off topic. I am pleased to learn you have not experienced any corruption while traveling.

No matter, contrary to your statement the NDAA legislation, Homeland Security poll numbers and approval ratings for the US Congress fall well, well below a majority, you are right, this is another discussion.

I hope this is an appropriate question.

Assuming international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example, traveling in Argentina and in the States make up equal groups of law abiding people, why is it that the potential/possibility to be arrested and put in jail is much, much greater in the States than in Argentina by about 5 times ?

Matter of fact, counting repeat arrests, as amazing as it seems....about one in six males in the United States 20-30 years old will be arrested at one time or another. The stats for females are lower. The USA has the highest % of people in jail per capita in the world, 750 prisoners per hundred thousand while Argentina has 147 prisoners per hundred thousand (2011).

What could be going on?

Thanks for the even handed way you brought me back to topic.

xfiltrate

Indeed.

I guess you'll have to post a citation for that dubious claim. Presumably you realize that just because incarceration rates in the US are much higher than in Argentina that does not mean that "international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example" are five times more likely to be arrested in the US than in Argentina?

I've been unable to find any support for your quoted figure, so once again please provide a citation.

Don't make it so easy. While xfiltrate loves to play fast and loose, shifting stats and random assertions so that he never has to admit fault, it is true (and easily verified) that my country arrests and incarcerates a much higher proportion of its population than most, maybe all, others. More startling than the assertions above, have a look at this journal article: Cumulative Prevalence of Arrest From Ages 8 to 23 in a National Sample .

What relevance has this for overlanders? Little or none, of course....except that when complaining bitterly about the corruption we encounter in the Developing World, it's good to maintain some perspective on law enforcement practices in our home countries.

Mark

First, without seeing more info than is available in the abstract, it is difficult to draw many conclusions from the cited article. It relies upon self-reported data from an unidentified set of subjects, and moreover relates to being arrested or "taken into custody". Does that include a stern talking to by a school security guard? Since the age group begins at 8 (yes, 8), I would expect so.

Second, the incarceration rate in the US is obviously off the charts but is due not do corruption--the topic of this thread--but rather to the criminalization of so many offenses in the US, which has reached ludicrous proportions. Any number of press reports describe people facing jail time for not only trivial drug offenses but offenses such as importing rare orchids, lobsters, hardwoods, etc. which were legally exported from their source countries. That's a whole different topic, but not relevant to this thread.

Ruta 14 Km 139 Southbound
Add mile marker 139 to the list. I was stopped at the southbound check point today and told I was speeding. The speed limit was 120 KM (75 MPH) and I was never over 70 MPH becuase I only had 350 pesos and needed to make my gas stretch to make it to my destination. After demanding 1200 pesos and a trip to the computer to use Google Translate they took 300 pesos and left me without enough gas to make it.

I used my Visa to purchase gas but it left a sour taste for Entre Rios. I probably wont return on that route again. A much better route north is BA to Rosario to Santa Fe then north to the falls.

I had the same problem at the same place. km 139
the officer wanted 1400 pesos for speeding, after discussion, I paid 50 dollars for lighting fault!!

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vieux-motards-quejamais.blogspot.com
side-errant.blogspot.com

This may be useful, not sure as we have not needed to put it to the test yet.

Our plan if they are trying to do for bogus crap is to pull our our video camera and start filming straight away identifying faces and badge numbers, we have a card with all the Anti Corruption numbers and will hand it to them and tell them to ring the phone number right there and then.

One of our fellow travellers did this and the Police backed on quicker than a rat in a drain pipe....so yes the immediate threat back to them may work.

Try it, nothing to lose, also make sure you were not doing anything wrong.


Argentina

The Argentine Federal Police have established a special Tourist Police Unit to receive complaints and investigate crimes against tourists. The unit, located at Corrientes 436 in Buenos Aires, responds to calls around the clock at 4346-5748 or toll-free 0800-999-5000 from anywhere in the country. The Mendoza Tourist Police Unit, open 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily, is located at San Martin 1143, telephone 0261-413-2135. After hours, the Mendoza unit may be reached by cell phone at 0261-15-6444-324.

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Cheers Andi & Ellen .... https://twomotokiwis.blogspot.com/ Two Moto Kiwis Alaska - Argentina - April 2012 -> Somewhere

Hi everybody.

I'm Argentinian and I did most of the routes here and I was stoped several times by the police, Gendarmeria (this is more for routes an borders.) and yes, they stop you and think how much money can get from you.

By law you don't need to pay ANY ticket directly to the officer. You ask for the ticket, then need to put the law that you break and the proof. For example, if you where speeding they need to put the ticket from the machine that measure the speed with the picture of your bike. (in fact here in argentina motorbikes are exent of speed ticket because about a legal issue (long story).

They always ask about stupid think, like reflective vest witch is not mandatory.

Its sad to read about this but its the reality here in Argentina.

They just want money if you show you decided they let you go.

Dont be scared about this. If somebody is planing to travel here in Argentina and want my phone number please send me a private message, I'll glad to help.

I'll contact some friends at Gerndarmeria and I'll show this post to them.

Take care guys!

Yet to have the slightest problem at any road blocks, so hope it continues.

I carry copies of the official complaints form for Argentina, but was talking to a fellow traveller in Usuaia and now I have files of complaint forms for several S American countries complete with appropriate logos and addresses where they can be submitted.

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Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

Any chance we could get our hands on some of the docs please ... will swap somewhere?

We have most of the anti corruption phone numbers etc too, if wanted I will freely post them up here no worries, anything to help fello travellers have a better day

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Cheers Andi & Ellen .... https://twomotokiwis.blogspot.com/ Two Moto Kiwis Alaska - Argentina - April 2012 -> Somewhere

Every time I'm stopped on Route 14. The checkpoint that more complicated is what is left after the overpass toward Colon Buenos Aires.
More than once claimed excessive speeds, especially in the areas of access that the speed limit is 80km / h.
Have to have patience and reason with them, I always take 50 separate weights and say I have only this amount of money.

Luck to those who go through there!

Alessander Souto