Indeed.

I guess you'll have to post a citation for that dubious claim. Presumably you realize that just because incarceration rates in the US are much higher than in Argentina that does not mean that "international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example" are five times more likely to be arrested in the US than in Argentina?

I've been unable to find any support for your quoted figure, so once again please provide a citation.

Don't make it so easy. While xfiltrate loves to play fast and loose, shifting stats and random assertions so that he never has to admit fault, it is true (and easily verified) that my country arrests and incarcerates a much higher proportion of its population than most, maybe all, others. More startling than the assertions above, have a look at this journal article: Cumulative Prevalence of Arrest From Ages 8 to 23 in a National Sample .

What relevance has this for overlanders? Little or none, of course....except that when complaining bitterly about the corruption we encounter in the Developing World, it's good to maintain some perspective on law enforcement practices in our home countries.

Mark

First, without seeing more info than is available in the abstract, it is difficult to draw many conclusions from the cited article. It relies upon self-reported data from an unidentified set of subjects, and moreover relates to being arrested or "taken into custody". Does that include a stern talking to by a school security guard? Since the age group begins at 8 (yes, 8), I would expect so.

Second, the incarceration rate in the US is obviously off the charts but is due not do corruption--the topic of this thread--but rather to the criminalization of so many offenses in the US, which has reached ludicrous proportions. Any number of press reports describe people facing jail time for not only trivial drug offenses but offenses such as importing rare orchids, lobsters, hardwoods, etc. which were legally exported from their source countries. That's a whole different topic, but not relevant to this thread.

Yup, I agree: off topic. But that particular assertion (one in six) is easy to research and you'll find it well-supported. If xfiltrate's assertion is off topic, so are you (and I). So who's complaining about whom?

As for the Pediatrics article, also off-topic, that's a respected, peer-reviewed journal supported by a major professional organization. If not inclined to purchase a subscription, you've merely got to decide whether you're more interested in finding fault (tempting, I'll admit, and not difficult) or addressing the central point. And before you get too carried away with your own sarcasm ("school security guard"), you might want to look into procedures for arresting juveniles, since juveniles are often arrested here.

Mark

In general, if you are a member of an equal group of law abiding HUBBERS traveling in USA and in Argentina you would be more likely to be arrested in the USA than in Argentina.

Corruption is the topic here, a topic I am not addressing at presence, but would suggest a bend toward that direction.

I am just comparing equal groups of HUBBERS traveling in two different countries and questioning the potential of a random group member to be arrested. A simple concept.

If, per capita arrests are three, four, five times higher (whichever) in the USA than in Argentina ,when comparing "equal groups of Hubbers" traveling in USA and in Argentina, it is logical that each member of the "equal groups of HUBBERS" would indeed be more likely to be arrested in the USA.

Here I am only comparing HUBBERS traveling in the USA with other HUBBERS traveling in Argentina, not with the population in general.

Let's move to the HUB PUB to continue this line of "reasoning" lest we really get wobbly.

xfiltrate

My thoughts regarding the existence of bad, corrupt
police that not only instigate crime but commit crimes
themselves mirror my thoughts regarding
humanity in general.

Now, in order to understand the police one must
understand the main function of the police, which is
to prevent or stop things from happening. .
Therefore, after a while as a police officer who is
repetitively preventing or stopping things, surrounded
by other police officers who are stopping things too,
he or she if not already having been selected by the
police application procedures as a stopper, becomes a
stopper.

Society needs, as part of its control responsibily,
stoppers.

I have successfully avoided several speeding tickets
by simply sitting in the car, or on my bike, with bowed head and
saying to the police officer now standing beside me...,
"we really need to stop speeders, don't we"
Immediately their was such affinity and apparent
sharing of reality the officer would not or could
not give me a ticket. I have passed this on to many
others and all who have tried it, have confirmed my
results.

Unfortunately, some police, (cultures designated
stoppers) have also been involved in situations where
their very life depended on their ability of stopping
something from happening. This confirms the fact to
them that their very life depends on their ability to
stop things.

I believe, and this is validated by actual statistics
of police corruption, much goes unreported, that
between 5 and 6% of US police are corrupt and
committing crimes against society. This group of bad
police contaminate and recruit from the other 15% or
so of the police who do not fall into the 80% I
believe are good people doing a tough job to the best
of their ability.

Unfortunately, the best "stoppers" are the ones who
get promoted and assume the leadership over large
groups of other police. Now remember, police in
general are not starters nor changers, just look at
the stats on any activity started and run by police
like Project DARE which has, by carefully weighted
scientific statistics created more drug use than what
would have been expected if the program did not exist.
This is fact. Or the comical failures of almost every
police run community event, they can't even have their
own athletic leagues or police balls (social events)
picnics etc...because they are all trying to stop
these things from happening. I am not inventing this,
several reputable books have been written on this very
topic.

I am not sure we can even expect our police to be the
innovative starters and changers of societal behavior,
but if there is anything, even things beneficial
starting or even beneficial changings occuring in a
community you can expect the police to be right on
the scene to stop it. The court systems also operate as stoppers of behavior, not starters of good behavior nor changers of society for the better.

So to directly answer your question for both North
America and South America I believe about 5% of the police
are corrupt and committing crimes against society and
that about 15% are in some way involved by the crime
of omission (not reporting the bad police) or minimal
participation in the commission of crimes against
society, and 80% are good men and woman trying to do
what is right.

One might say 80% really want to help others survive.

I am, in the final analysis a starter of projects and
a changer and yes, if I have to I can stop things too,
so by nature I have very little in common with the
police, and represent a threat to them once they get
to know me.

This might be a good time to point out that I do agree
that every culture needs stoppers, This is an
unfortunate reality that has been created by a
relatively few really bad people. And, look what
happened to Senator Robert Kennedy because, as United
States Attorney General, he was prosecuting the
mafia/police connections in various cities throughout
North America. There is a wealth of documentation
about this existing corrupt connection available, I
have no need to be creative here.

Their main function is to catch those who have already broken the law and 'bring them to justice". Their mere presence might serve as a minor deterrent to those within sight, but does nothing at all for those out of view.

It is that bringing to justice, with its legally-sanctioned repercussions that is supposed to serve as a deterrent so that more-or-less law abiding citizens aren't tempted to break the law.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

That is incorrect, in my experience. If you use the term "detained" instead of arrested, Argentina has it hands down (or "hands up" as it were).

Detained pending payment of bribes is what's I'm referring to and I think you know that's is true.

Look, I am tired of the ignorance ... of those who buy the lies and the propaganda.... Please understand that you can purchase stock in the USA prison system (it is listed on the stock exchange as real estate) and justice has very little or nothing to do with keeping the jails at capacity. The Feds keep funding the war on drugs to keep the jails full, not to inhibit those who break the law and bring them to justice.... WAKE UP... The US government and the banks '''' Bank of America , Citibank etc. could not make it if they were not laundering drug money, and the fines they pay for violating the law are less than a slap on the wrist... No bankers go to prison. The fines for laundering drug money is considered part of the cost of doing business.

Just look at the DARE program every statistic indicates that drug use increases whereever the DARE program has been implemented. WITHOUT EXCEPTION look at Mexico, Gusman ... head of the Sinaloa cartel escaped jail... no one knows how - right and the Mexican police only arrest the Zetas - who were originally trained by the United States special forces , but decided to create their own drug cartel.

The reason the murder rate in Chicago is through the roof is because the Mexican drug cartels are killing off the American drug cartels competition. Wake up and do a little research PLEASE,,,,

Look up"Fast and Furious" and then get real PLEASE.
Please do a little independent research and wake up.....

The USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison population figure that out for yourself.

Thank you xfiltrate