As far as I’m aware there was no written contract. The shop in question is in the Midlands and my brother Martyn is in a village in Devon.

He lost his driving license due to epilepsy which resulted from brain damage caused by a RTA many years ago. He has no credit rating, work history or chance of improving his lot.

Whether or not there's a contract is largely immaterial, take a look at the link I posted earlier. I think it is not unreasonable that they keep the original £200 deposit, but they don't have a snowflake in hell's chance of arguing that they have incurred £1100 of losses.

This won't look good for the dealer if it goes to County Court and the local papers (not to mention MCN etc) get to hear of this.

Given the circumstances, if I was the dealer I would be refunding the whole lot. So it wouldn't hurt to see whether Katie Morley would take up the case for you.

__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Thanks Tim,

More good advice gratefully received.

I phoned the top guy last week, explained my brother’s condition very calmly and reasonably and asked them to refund the money.
He said he wasn’t happy but would consider it and call me back. That hasn’t happened but I’m constructing my letter of complaint to him, that I need to send before taking it up wider and further.

I suspect that he hopes I’ll just slink away but that isn’t going to happen.

He almost certainly hopes you'll slink away! Most people do, even where substantial sums are involved.

I usually give one (1) reminder call to people who've promised but not delivered. It's just me, but that's what I'd do before writing "the letter."

Standard operating procedure: when people make vague promises, I ask when to expect to hear from them about progress. The idea is to get them to commit to a specific action by a specific date.

Standard procedure which I usually intend, but fail to accomplish: an emailed memo stating "This is my understanding of our phone conversation [date and time]," followed by a summary which includes that specific action and time by which it will be done.

And: whenever lawyers and courts might become involved, always document everything in writing--times of calls, first and last names, specific content, etc.

Hope that's helpful.

Mark

I have worked in many motorcycle shops. Maybe I can help.

So you paid a shop £1100 with no or sales reciept, contracts signed etc ?

As it was done over the phone, I assume you didn't sign anything. Are there any emails exchanged with details or terms agreed ?

Until you come back with what paperwork, contracts or reciepts you have, it's unlikely anyone can give you any advice on what to do next !

If you have no paperwork, it means the shop has no paperwork either. They will just have a deposit in their account.

You could both literally have two different stories.

Is the bike still listed for sale on their site ? If yes, then you could argue they have never removed it from sale.

If they have removed it from sale then they could argue they could have sold it elsewhere in this time and they could have incurred costs. Taxing it, servicing it, labour time.... etc

I've never known a situation where the shop has been able to keep a payment for a sale which has collapsed. But they may try hard to keep the deposit. I would contest that if they never removed it from sale and no work was undertaken.

I would just politely tell them that you will use a Small Claims court to work out the dispute.

If there is no paperwork or contracts signed by yourself you could just say that they sold you the bike for £1100 and they haven't delivered.

And they could say whatever they wanted.

The court would likely give you your money back and split the costs between you both. But I think the shop will refund you before that happens.


My personal opinion from a someone who buys and sells bikes and runs a small business is this.

If you ask to buy a bike from me and we agree a price and deal, I would ask a deposit for me to remove that bike from sale elsewhere. I would stop advertising it and I would likely spend money and time preparing it for you.

If you change you mind, then it is YOU that is backing out of the deal. And you have cost me money and time in the process.

That's what a deposit is for. To protect against timewasters and protect against costs incuured by the seller to process the sale.

I won't give anyone a deposit back. Otherwise all i'd do is spend my day dealing with timewasters and dreamers and working for nothing.


First..

What paperwork do you have ? Reciepts, sales orders ? Emails ??


Another thing to consider is the distance selling act. You usually have 14 days to cancel anything bought over the phone or online.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

When I take a deposit I send a receipt/ order ack saying what it is:

Received from Mr Customer, £500 non-refundable payment for the removal from sale and preparation of Hondasuki AB-125 XX05ABC. This amount to be deducted from the total amount of £3500 when the sale is concluded. Sale to be concluded by 31.02.23.

Time wasters, fantacists and nutters make this necessary, which is a bit sad, but that's the modern world.

If this seller had such an e-mail you would have expected them to forward a copy PDQ. Your money resting in his bank account is still your money.

Have they done anything to check it's OK for one brother to act for another? Data protection is a nice little grenade to play catch with during such negotiations, but save that one for later. Slackness on that makes them look clueless on everything else.

I would certainly follow up and ask when they might reply, given you need to decide what to do next. A letter by registered post is then old school but should concentrate minds.

As the month end is past you may find salesmen of the on commission type more amenable.

Andy

Let’s remember that I didn’t send anything to anybody.

My brother sent the money and I’ve written out seven specific questions for him, asking for seven answers. I got back a rambling sentence that missed all of the exact questions. This is going to take a while.

Obviously a normal buyer would have documentation and receipts but clearing up for people with mental problems is never easy.

One of you mentioned nutters and time wasters and that is exactly what these dealers think. They’re angry that this time wasting nutter is buggering them around. But he was doing his best. It’ his condition that trips up his, to him, wonderful plans.

Another thing I've learned (and often fail at in practice) is that the average person has a VERY limited attention span for written material, so it's more effective to refrain from asking "seven specific questions" if possible. Best bet would be to make one point (brother disabled, paid X amount, wants refund), and ask when he can expect a refund check, and maybe if you are communicating with the correct person. Complex letters are good for establishing a paper trail for later on, but not usually good at eliciting useful responses.

Two other things I've had remarkably good luck with: writing to the executives rather than the flunkies, and posting on a company's major social media page. I've done both mostly with huge corporations, so not sure how this applies to your situation, but it probably won't hurt. Note that I do not threaten or bluster or express outrage--I just state the situation and what I need from them. This has worked well with, for example, Air Canada, T-Mobile, Scotia Bank, and one large insurance company.

As usual, if this isn't helpful please ignore completely.

Mark

Worth noting that the UK Small Claims courts will expect you to have done everything possible to resolve the matter before bringing it to court. So make sure you have done, and that you have documented it. As Mark says, dates of correspondence/calls, persons spoken to, responses, etc.

The chances are the manager is an employee, whose bonus depends on sales/profits, and he's seeing this as a big chunk out of something he already 'banked'. The Directors of the business (try Companies House) may take a different view on their good name being dragged through the courts, MCN, social media etc for sharp practice and screwing a disabled person. Can you contact them direct, go over his head?

With no written contract it's your word against theirs, you could claim the initial deposit was non refundable and they agreed verbally that the second sum would be. They could disagree but they have no proof. A court would probably aim to steer a fairly neutral course and I'd be surprised if they didn't agree to a compromise like that.

Don't threaten though, unless cajoling completely fails, since that's the nuclear option and may make them dig their heels in.

I agree with the above 2 posters about making sure you approach the organ grinder directly, rather than some random monkey.

I had success with British Airways when BA Düsseldorf, Germany couldn't find my lost specialist luggage quickly enough and ASDA in the UK when one of their delivery drivers snapped off the wing mirror of my van and their Morley, West Yorkshire depot manager was giving me the run around. Chief executives Alex Cruz (BA) and Andy Clarke (ASDA) were happy to help

Of course I was polite, but assertive. Giving them timelines with exact times/dates/summaries of my prior dealings with their minions as well as highlighting possible consequences if they continued to be obstructive might have helped them to focus on the best way to get me off their case.

PS. Also once threatened HBOS (Halifax Bank of Scotland) with a winding up order when they lost money I was transferring from the UK to the US (to buy a motorcycle in California ). The logic was that they had lost the money (£3000), so if they couldn't return it, they must be bankrupt... By that stage, politeness was in short supply, but I didn't swear, just used cutting sarcasm and ridicule. My money was returned, with interest and at a 10% profit because of fluctuations in the £/USD exchange rate I no longer bank with HBOS.

__________________

Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

Thanks fellas,

I’ve applied most of the suggestions on here and the Managing Director got back to me.

He agreed to repay the majority and we’re just just having a little back and forth now on what deductions are acceptable for his ‘costs’.

Thanks for all the great advice. I’ll let you know how things work out.

The absolutely most he can retain is the deposit.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Hi guys,

The manager came back yesterday and said he wanted to keep £300 of the £1,200 my brother paid for expenses.

We went back and forth and he came down to keeping £200 and wouldn’t budge.

I relayed that to my brother who says he’ll fight it. He says he wasn’t told about any non-refundable deposit.

I suggested he take the grand and chalk it up to experience as fighting it would cost more than £200 and the verdict could go either way.

Thanks everyone. Very good advice all round.