Recently I'm doing some research about overland traveling with 4x4, so I'm thinking and reading a lot of this, and I got something now stuck in my mind.

We all know that the best off road vehicles are the good ol' Land cruisers, Land rovers, Patrols and other cars that have beam axles, high ground clearance and the most important, old engines without any electric stuff inside, so they are easy to fix them in the middle of nowhere.

So the question stands, what is your opinion about the progress, in which the companies trying to be more environmental, using EURO standard engines, which includes a lot of electronics, computers, catalytic systems,... Getting the ground clearance lower because of the fuel consumption, independent suspension because less usage on real off road...

Is the progress looked in this way, that on all the interesting parts of Sahara, for example, they will put tarmac on and no beam axle will be needed?

Is the progress looked in electric cars, that have fuel range around 200km, to prevent some damage in environment (dunes, plants...)?

My opinion stands, that progress should go in the way, that the parts of the world, where 4x4 is mandatory, they should build old style 4x4 with some experience of the other. (For example, the last Land cruiser should not be with independent suspension and electronic, but combination from the experience of the 60, 80, 75 series, with some emission electronic, that are not important for engine running)

I hope, I will get some response, cause I'm really interested in other opinion about the problem...

Thank you.
Nejc

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I think technology is guided by sales , for example in the us most of 4X4 are for road only and will most certainly never see real off road condition . Take a look at the last range rover or mercedes and you will see they are street only 4X4 . Some truck like the Hilux are here to replace old technology and even so they are with some electronic they have very good reputation as far reliability and performance are concern. Same goes for moto , many will tell you to take a old air head BMW but in reality a good 650GS or tenere will be as reliable but with better brake /power/fuel effiency and confort.Another things is in countries where they need 4X4 they often cannot afford them so no market there . I am always surpirse when travelling in africa to see what they do with a 504 peugeot or a 2CV amd lets not forget the 4L renault .

I don't think there's much chance of anyone producing an old school 4x4 any more - what comes out of the factories is governed by a combination of what (lots of) customers will spend money on and what Euro / US etc standards the vehicles need to meet. So look forward to more and more electronics in charge of every part of the vehicle until both the engine and the driver are no longer needed (other future predictions are available )

There is a bit of an upside though - just how fuel efficient things have become was very apparent when some friends from the US visited us yesterday in a rental 4x4 (some sort of Nissan). They've done about 1500 miles in the UK since arriving and are getting an average of 58mpg from it. That's almost exactly the same as I've been getting out of my mid 70's 125cc commuter Suzuki. Some advances are worth having.

The days of having a simple and robust designed vehicle of any type, let alone a 4x4 are a thing of the past.

Even the vehicles that are supplied to the military...including frontline equipment are governed by these rules and regulations. The only exception so far being tracked vehicles.

The political pressure makes them essentially illegal to build in the western world, and the economic pressure would make them a financial suicide to build in the western world as well.....the actually customer base that would buy these back to basics machines would be tiny. Some overlanders, some agricultural and some specialist companies at best.

Which is a shame, as almost every technological attachment seems or actually removes the vehicle further away from the essence of what I would class as a overlander.

My bike for example, a BMW G650GS is about as simple a bike as is possible to get in the new BMW range....and it it still a fiddly bastard with very badly designed components in relation to roadside repair and replacement....the company do not care, how many of their customers actually use their bike to ford rivers, or ride through mountain ranges and need to do emergency repairs or servicing?

I have to agree with most of the comments here.

Most vehicles that are sold around the world are made to be practical for their surroundings and where they are most likely to be used. As road networks expand, and populations become more urban, the Honda Civic becomes more important.

The simple, mechanically based engines with few bells and whitstles will be more of a thing of the past. Aside from the overlanding and rock crawling communities, few people will EVER push their trucks even close to the limit of what they can actually do. Marketing though is the big reason why a truck has massive towing capacity....not because we NEED it, but because we THINK we need it.

To me, the advent of 3-D printers will be a HUGE boon to the overlanding area where people can more easily produce one-off designs and really start to customize their rigs. Right now we are really dependent on a few really smart engineers and some great companies like OME for developing the next hot thing.

I think a lot of folks have great ideas and cool designs, just no real means for implementing them. I hope that 3-D printing is a way that people could literally start to make entire vehicles out of their garage. I have already read an article on one guy that re-made a classic car. Then you could have your brand new 1970s Toyota! How sweet would that be??

The after-market world is immense, beast or beauty it's your choice. Older models can have extended lives and new can be bought in base models and personalised. There is no such thing as a best 4WD they're always a compromise, small or large, gadgetry or reliability they cannot be all things to all men. Yes, power will be hobbled with emission controls (better gearing might help) still, the making of modern road friendly shopping-tanks is partly welcomed by the hard core, everybody loves comfort and safety at high speed.

I think this is an outdated view, which is widely used.

Now we live at the year 2013 - and the "middle of nowhere" is hard to find.

Those who really drive abroad - they own a Satphone or a two way Sat-Messager (like Spot Connect or Delorme inReach) - and are able to help themself out - if something technical happens.

Today we don`t find situations like our Grandfathers (and older) had at their time.

Today we see more and more highly equipped cars who are on the road world wide. How many years you will watch these travellers until you "discover" that it is possible to use modern cars?

Stuff like Airbags, ESP and "pre crash safety system" can safe your life - also during your worldtrip. Also an air condition help you to concentrating to the road on really hot days.

Do i mention the advantages of a modern car, with adaptive suspension, adjustable dampers? The option to lift the car when you need more ground clearance?

Yes, you have to make your car ready for your trip, when you use a modern car. You have to carry an ODB2 Device who is able to delete errors. You have to program out stuff like an "DPF" on Diesel cars. You should look before you buy a car, that you can get them ready for such a trip.

That the electric stuff can cause problems: yes. Does it happens regulary to travelers, or does it often happen?

In near every main capital world wide you are able to find someone who can fix your car, or you can bring your car to someone who can fix it - in worst case szenarios.

In near any bigger city world wide you will see some modern cars, sometimes also abroad. We meet at sample an local registered Toyota Prado here:



and many more modern cars in most of the bigger cities in africa. We also drove a car there, who is fully equipped with all the stuff modern cars have - without hassle: http://transafrica2012.blogspot.com

What i want to say: take what you want. You are not limited to old cars without any electric stuff.

Surfy
.

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Trans-Africa over the west coast

vehicles modified outside their original manufacturers specification are banned in some countries, and it will come in in others, so soon you probably won't be able to mod your vehicle

Relying on the local Toyota dealer in the depths of Angola to fix your all singing all dancing electrical everything landcruiser is probably folly, they will have neither the equipment nor the expertise as their versions of the vehicle will be very different, and of course, you can't actually use your SAT phone to drag it there to get fixed! You either do a bodge yourself to get it there or try and organise local recovery.

I would rather use a vehicle I have a chance of fixing myself, or that a local mechanic can fix, rather than freight something thousands of miles to be fixed like the Guy I heard about a few years ago who had to low load his rangerover several thousand miles when the immobiliser played up.

In the developed world there will be no more basic 4x4s made. public opinion and political pressure from environmentalists won't allow it.

But not to worry, in a few years the Chinese will have tarmacked Africa and you'll be able to drive there in your Toyota Pious. Those bits that do require a 4x4 we'll be banned from anyway by the environmentalists thanks to the idiots that treat other peoples countries as their own personal rally stage.

I was somewhat dismayed to read an article in Ride (I think) about an off road trip to Morocco with a group of Italian Bikers who thrashed around the countryside at high speed showing off to each other their prowess at pulling wheelies.

But hey, I guess all the sweets they threw at the local kids made that alright eh!!

Great work guys, thanks for the positive publicity

Travel now, because in 20 years time there will be a Tesco and mcDonalds in Timbuktu with a queue of campervans in the car park and the only trips into the desert will be with licensed tour companies

Shure, you can try to be to super hero who is able to fix most of problems by yourself.

You can also try to tell yourself, that the bushmechanic is able to help you when you use old hardware.

When you watch some Blogs of travellers you will find enough samples who the people stranded for a while, also using an Toyota HZJ 78. Too in Europe, watch ottos blog, linked at my blog.

You will find many samples of people, who get this way to the next big or main capital:



And yes, i had a look at at Toyota in Luanda, Angola:





I dont understand how the people focus that hard for an low tec car.

If you had an serios accident you had probably better chances in a car with 10 Airbag???

Do you not think, that the electronic helpers could help you to avoid an heavy accident???

Do you also prepare yourself against other problems who could happen on such a trip? What is about the bad boys with weapons who are searching for hostages to earn money? What is with the dangerous animals who lives there like scorpions and so on?

When you focus that way to low electric cars to avoid electrical problems - how can you travel throug africa, where a breakdown is one of the smallest problems you can get there?

You can do it with a prius today, when you stay on the main roads and tracks. You dont need a 4x4.


Unfortunaty i think the same way at this point :-(


Surfy

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About Overlanding, Travelogues, Equipment
Trans-Africa over the west coast

The OP was about vehicles, not security issues which are covered elsewhere and I'm not going to go over old ground as to why I think your priorities are wrong.

Actually my mechanical knowledge is pretty limited, I thought an OBD2 was a character from Starwars! Which is why I don't drive a landrover although up to now (fingers crossed) I have always managed to fix any problems I have had.

What I do though is try and drive a vehicle that will be familiar to the mechanics I may rely on enroute if something goes wrong. They are far more likely to be familiar with a basic vehicle, even if not the specific vehicle being driven than a 2012 Landcruiser.

I don't drive so fast on an expedition that I need electronic help to avoid an accident. Yes, my 2012 HIlux would be a lot safer at the same speed in the same accident, but in my Landcruiser I will be going a lot slower, so have less chance of having the accident in the first place and, if I do have one the lower speeds should mean it will be less severe. My Hilux has an Eur 5 safety rating, I don't know about the HJ60 because they didn't do them then, but it looks a lot tougher than my IQ3 which also has a 5!! And at least I don't have to worry about airbag failure, ABS failure or the myriad of other electronic bits that go wrong under the harsh conditions of dust, water and vibration found in much of Africa (and indeed on the tarmac roads of Europe) and which once back in the UK can render the vehicle an economic right off way before it's time (I know of several people who have had to scrap cars because of electronic problems that were going to be too expensive to fix. Not on an expensive new Landcruiser obviously, but eventually even that car will be subject to the basic laws of economics)

Another point to remember, Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a fancy new truck.

for years I didn't travel because I thought you needed to spend a fortune on a pups bits truck. The Plymouth Dakar Challenge changed all that for me. All the cars cost less than £100. Of the 20 in our group, every one made it to he Gambia.

It was then I realised you can do this cheaply, so I went out and bought myself an old HJ60, in the days you could still get a good one cheaply, and travelled in that.



Note the Halfords Tow rope, and Halfords roof bars. The tyres were ex military sand tyres for £35 each. The other truck sports a roof rack for a Volvo bought on ebay for £30. I did spend a few quid on new suspension for my truck, decent recovery points and a comprehensive service before we left. I had also owned this truck for about 2 years by this stage so knew it pretty well. familiarity with your vehicle is one of the key factors.

Now, I am in the position to have a nice vehicle, but I chose to spend the equivalent of what I bought my Hilux for new on my HJ60 because I believe that is the best truck for the job.







That truck you posted a piccie of looks like it has been in an accident so is pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

Any one can break down, anyone can end up having to leave their truck. I fully acknowledge that may happen to me but I believe my way reduces that risk. You believe your way does. We will never agree on it, although obviously I am right

I was chatting to a couple of expedition truck builders at the adventure overland show. Their opinion was euro6 is the death knell for building overland vehicles based on new models. One of them said in reality anything after euro3 and you start running into problems.
they will now probably have to move into reconditioning older trucks to use on any trip going outside of Europe.

These are professionals working in a competitive market for many years so I respect their opinions.