Today's posts bring me back to a thought from page 1. The EU is a bus tour run by a committee. If you want to be in you have to live with the CAP, paying benefits to whoever, straight bananas etc. The Swiss are on a motorcycle tour, they call in the places on the bus tour they fancy and avoid the bingo and service station food.

How two faced the politicians will be reflected in their response to Dave's deal. My money is on every single one including Dave backing it. The Polish PM is the only one with the balls to tell it straight; fit in with the bus tour or go ride your bike and risk getting wet if it rains. The rest want us to pay our share even if we hate it and continue to cause strife because we don't like their plan.

Andy

I came into this thread with my own statement of “pro-Europe, anti-EU”.
Currently I think that if we do end up with a no to the exit vote then it will be “business as usual”; a vote for the status quo.
No change of any significance, carry on in the same old ways.
The current poll within here does indeed show a majority against leaving but it also shows a majority want change; that begs many questions.


There is the aspect of the challenge.
A new start; up for making our own way in the world.
Break out of the current dross of our lives, personal and/or societal and governmental, roll the dice and get on with improving Britain without always looking over our shoulders for what others lay down as the rules.
Raise our sights, have imagination, work harder, yes, but also better – more intelligently with an increased sense of “being in it together”, yep! that well worn phrase. Everyone would have to take on greater personal responsibility for their actions, their inputs, their outputs; none of this would be simple and it would take a great amount of both time and effort.
To do this would not be easy, it would need a brand new approach, across many many spheres of activity; we would have to demand that our government changes for a start, if necessary by sacking them – not easy, the way it is set up at present. For instance, the 5 year fixed term for a parliament would have to be changed back to the arrangements of earlier days so that a vote of no confidence within that house would bring about a new election more or less immediately. We have been conned by our own representatives to think that they have tenure, come what may, for a full 5 years.
Similar actions would be necessary in many other aspects, at all levels of government.
It would need a government of national unity, putting party politics on the back burner while the issues are clearly identified and dealt with; in essence the country would be on what is normally referred to as a war footing for an indeterminate length of time.
In short, nothing would be unthinkable in dealing with the best interests of the UK; for instance, a federal structure to deal with the Scots' wish to leave the UK. However, if they do so confirm that wish then so be it – there would be no point in a pressed nation continuing to drain our stamina with constant complaints. A nation that decides by referendum to check out of the EU could only agree that those who wish to leave the UK have the right to do just that.


Leadership will be needed and it may be in short supply at first, going by the standard of politicians we see at present; not many of the current crop show any real motivation beyond their own personal careers – in short, statesmanship is currently in short supply.
Those in the shadows who have capability would need to step forward, speak up and see off those they know who have been in place merely for their own selfish, self-aggrandising interests.


To do this would also show an extraordinary level of leadership to the remainder of the European nations; arguably they would draw heart from a UK decision to leave and take up their own challenges within their countries thereby building their own better futures.
We would be, should be, respected for having taken the decision and, thereby, taken the lead in a new deal for all of Europe that wishes to reform.
Necessary trade arrangements and similar technical data would flow there from.


The alternative is what?
Another round of financial crisis is on the way in any case; when we are told the story that we are a rich country it is conveniently forgotten that the whole edifice is based on a mountain of debt.

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Dave

I think if you do a thread like this you are going to get some points/quotes/replies which some people don't agree with. Even though I am a seasoned traveller and have been all over the world (not always on a bike) like most of the people on this forum and despite us being open minded it doesn't mean to say that we all agree with what is going on in the UK or with a group of unelected Eurocrats meddling where they can. It is/has been an interesting thread to read.

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

At least no one's mentioned Diana

Between Pegida and the national front in France (their fairly recent potential fortune in French elections), the average populace seems to equate Political asylum seekers fleeing for their lives and other migrants who are not in any physical danger. Several 'media' outlets blur or remove the destinations between these two very different groups. There was a recent video doing the rounds on social media that basically said if people thought asylum seekers from Syria were blagging their need to enter Europe, they should watch the attached video that showed very clearly the utter devastation created due to the war.

One of the main problems is, as a result of the bungled way both Iraq 'wars' were handled, none in the West are at all keen to get involved in Syria. If the international community had LEGALLY stepped in when the civil war began, then much of what's now happening would not be happening. The problem with many of our leaders is they cannot think beyond their next election, irrespective as to whether it would be best globally or not.

As to Ted's earlier point, I too began this thread thinking that we should not leave. I still hold this basic tenant, but I'd like some changes. Riding a motorbike, as many of us do, we are often at the sharp end of beaurocrats who make decisions arbitrarily, us having no recourse through elections to remove idiots who 'know best'. Although I'd like beaurocratic changes, I'm still a believer that we're stronger together.

"White UK-born people"

What's your point there Tim? You seem to use that statistic rather liberally and with a negative spin without really saying why you find it a nuisance? Are you referring to the non-UK born but "white" people, i.e. The hundreds of thousands of Irish and Americans, (though many of them could be "non-White"). I'm a quarter Black though you'd never know it from me being a ginger- where would I fit in? Should we differentiate between pure white and mostly white? I never understood these sorts of classifications and to be honest I think they are as abused as they are arbitrary. Maybe you could expand on that?

A short read about the FSA is quite revealing, who was funding it and how it was politically supported, etc. You're emphasis on legally was noted. The west have been after Assad for a while and I believe the 3 million or so refugees are a direct result of western intervention. NATO et al and whoever is running the show behind it are allowed to destroy counties and cause untold death, misery and suffering, the political frontmen are reshuffled and the war machine rumbles on.

Before the funding and arming of the FSA Syria was one of the most developed and progressive counties in the Middle East. It will take generations to overcome the destruction. Now it's just the latest stage in an absurd and unnecessary theatre of war between Iran, Russia and the West and Gulf States.

For whose benefit and interest does this new model of boarder less and never ending war suit? Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Yemen (note the near total media black out!) and now Syria. It's totally depressing, and yet after decades of bombing the Middle East the newest and best solution is more of the same. All for resources which we can no longer afford to use.


For me there is a lot of hyperbole and simple bias dressed up as intellectual debate - little in the way of facts or analysis. It's mostly as simple as EU is bad and must go. But why? The reason is mostly because it 'doesn't work', though it's not said why. Will the UK, Europe or the world be a better place without the EU? If so why? It's all strawman - attacks on the EU itself as an institution and little about the actual policies, laws or regulation which it enacts.

I think you possibly had a different word in mind than 'liberally' (open to new ideas, broad-minded, generous, etc.).

What's my point? It's that the original population of London (compared, say, to the days of WWII) is becoming a minority. Did I say it was a nuisance? Er... no. Did I give it a negative spin? Again, no.

It was an observation. Have a read of the 2011 census.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I get the impression that you may not be aware of the interview in the link below.
It is relevant to the points you make above and I have underlined the most relevant.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/we-re-g...udan-iran/5166

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Dave

The more educated forum users know full well to avoid anything DM focused.

The thread topic is being debated in many forums & some are much more intelligently contributed than some.


Sent from my MoJ mobile tagging device

Unfortunately I've not to date read 'all' 12 pages of the thread, however the impression of being anti-Europe isn't a true summary & conclusion to some.

Maybe It's the 'EU political' element & regular interference and meddling, especially from an unelected council.

Both campaigns have been poor to say the least, which is even more disturbing.


Sent from my MoJ mobile tagging device

Spineless politicians will go wherever they think it best suits 'their' career.

We'll not become the next 51st state.

I'd like the UK to fiscally progressive, and our UK is more than ugly enough to financially support itself.

No business has made plans to relocate, the UK's employment status is a huge attraction and we've still a skills shortage so the eu jobs issue will rebalance itself.

Last GE: project fear, Labour/SNP
EU ref: project fear mk2, scaremongering over trade, jobs and unattractive to other wise countries.

So far I've seen very little global vision just eu tunnel vision.

However, the electorate always votes for the safe option so is be extremely surprised if we do leave.....


Sent from my MoJ mobile tagging device

Fiscally progressive and global vision, EU tunnel vision, what do these mean? Forgive me I'm so tired of news speak and buzz words.

An alternative model of banking or of our economic system in general? I believe reintroducing something resembling the Glass Steagall act, reevaluating who central banking works for, bringing in true progressive taxation, working on total transparency in government, and declaring 'war' on inequality would be a good start. Also if you already know everything I wrote why are you still talking about national debt as though it was somehow affected by the EU?

I haven't.

Take a look at my reference thread; the last 6 weeks of postings is enough, in this context (I summarised the whole earlier 4 years about then).
See what you think.

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Dave

As far as I knew we vote in European MP's and the system is more or less based on parliamentary democracy, no? How is the EU not democratic? EU citizens no more have a say in voting in the 'eurocrats' any more than we have voting in our civil service.

About the same way that the UK is not democratic, but that's the short answer.

Consider the EC*, the ECB and the roles of the "5 Presidents", especially the "Eurogroup" of financial ministers, as subsidiary replies.


* For clarity, the EC is identifed in here: https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e...munities_e.htm
(i.e. the Commission)

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Dave