For me, his final paragraph is a cop out:-
"I believe that we should remain within the union. But we should do so in the spirit of true scepticism: a refusal to believe anything until we have read the small print; a refusal to suspend our disbelief. Is it possible to be a pro-European Eurosceptic? I hope so, because that is what I am"
For Monbiot, "the spirit of true scepticism" above means do nothing.

I am also a pro-European Eurosceptic and I see things more like this (it is one of the comments made on Monbiots' article):-
"I'm starting to hate my husband. He is a bully, ignores my wishes and will never change his ways. He also takes lots of my hard-earned money and I am supposed to be grateful when I get a little of it back...though he tells me what to spend it on.
He has started bringing in lots of people into our house and its getting cramped but he doesn't care. Yesterday he said there's still enough room for lots of his Turkish, Albanian and Bosnian friends.
I can't bring myself to leave him though, because....I'm absolutely terrified of becoming independant."


As per my longish post of about a week ago (post number 242 on page 17), are we up for this or do we follow Monbiots' lack of moral fibre?

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Dave

What's lacking about his 'moral fiber'? - can you point out what he said which compromised or was counter to his 'moral fibre' - and since when has deciding EU membership been a moral decision? What's it got to do with morality? I have to say Walkabout you are prone to using a lot of emotive and loaded language while being rather short on facts and evidence - maybe you ought to consider journalism as a day job.

For me he basically says the EU is bad and needs improvement but the alternative is worse, i.e. An unfettered, unaccountable and arguably undemocratic system we have now which would be strengthened by EU withdrawal. I largely agree on this having a very cynical view on UK 'democracy' and believing the greater the checks and balances on power the better.

His main point is on the environment and public health and how the EU still has some teeth left between enforcing power for the public good and corporate power - where as the UK government is completely acquiescent to special interests.

The point he refers to would be;

EU legislation on air pollution;

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-air-pollution

The European Drinking Water Directive;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drin...ater_directive

And I think I'd add my own example of how the EU didn't bow down to big agribusiness like Monsanto and banned the use of clothianidin, imidacloprid and thiametoxam for two years to observe the effect of the bee pollution in Europe. Our government in all it's wisdom lobbied hard against it!

https://www.rt.com/news/bee-eu-pesticides-ban-750/

So it's legislation like this I would largely be voting for as I think the UK ruling class must be diluted as much as possible. In the current global system I think we need the EU and the benefit of membership far exceed its costs - and - I include immigration in this. I think the UK is a better country with immigration than without.

Incidentally I think most people's fear and hatred of the EU seems to flow from immigration. I don't think immigration within the EU is the problem and nor will it go away with the EU itself. For me the hypocrisy with the British is especially foul - that we're all up for bombing the Middle East back to the Middle Ages on 'humanitarian' grounds but when the millions of displaced from the counties who've had the NATO treatment who turn up, we're not so humanitarian after all. Note the Dublin Convention.

Monbiot claims to be a Eurosceptic, but he hasn't the balls to do anything about that = no moral fibre.

Your mileage does vary, but you do have a touching faith in the nascent EUSSR.

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Dave

In practice, it is this:-
The Visegrad States’ Posture on Europe’s Refugee Crisis Poses a Real Threat to Greece

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Dave

Faith? I try to judge on facts. I outlined some EU policy above. A whole lot more than the no crowd have done, who apparently have absolutely nothing to contribute accept hyperbole, anecdote, and a very strange sort of language they've apparently lifted from tabloid columnists.

Yes- I think it's basically that the first place refugees arrive is the one in which they must seek asylum. Very unfair on Greece and Italy.

I think we could have a whole different topic on immigration though!

As they said on Mock the Week the Greek economy is in such bad shape they'd be better off pretending to be Syrian refugees and trying to get into Germany.

Given they tried claiming back money they were forced to lend Germany at gun point in 1943, that's going not going to end well.

Andy

Is Cameron's deal enough for any of you guys? I'm a little underwhelmed, I must admit, despite being that rare breed of a pro-European Brit.

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand

Has Dave dun it for me? No, of course not, but I never expected him to come back waving much more than a piece of P.R. dept paper. I think you'd have to have been pretty close to the in /out balance point to be swayed either way by what he achieved.

I'll listen with due diligence to what the out-ers come up with but it's going have to be a lot better than a harking back to our numerous finest hours and a bravado based assertion that we're big enough to go it alone.

Now that the starting gun has been fired I'll been keeping an ear out for the first of the factions to use the phrases "united we stand, divided we fall" or "chained to a cadaver".

I've already been emailed by the local LibDems (there are a few left) inviting me to attend a "Vote in with the LibDems" meeting, complete with free window stickers. I probably will put one up but only if I can get the "UKIP says stay in" version.

Has every sign of half measures that they will try and wheedle out of later. The French are already saying there will be no treaty change when there supposedly has to be to get out of ever closer union.

I'm unconvincable though. Our own politicians like the comfort blanket of blaming their failures on the EU, that is what needs to go and also why Cameron would have supported any deal short of the commission appointing his replacement. The concept of political union is wrong to me.

Andy

Watching the news channel France 24 (in English!) the other day, they were interviewing a MEP from UKIP. Not surprisingly, this guy was spouting some seriously anti-European rhetoric and the lady 'interviewing' him (he basically had his own agenda, shocker) was getting increasingly annoyed with his ranting. Like those above, I'm hoping that the 'arguments' put forward are reasoned and intelligent, although I'm sure the opposite will be true.

Also, if Gove wants to leave, is it wrong that that means I definitely want to stay

Gove is a very close ally of the PM however as he's also 'justice secretary' which also means he'll see tangible evidence of Brussels interference & meddling.

The so called David Cameron 'deal'
is toilet paper, the 'small print' states no change in current systems as it requires 'treaty change' , the EU doesn't want to reform.






Sent from my MoJ mobile tagging device

The Common Market was started for the very best of reasosn, to help build a great Europe after the destruction of WW2, although lets not forget president De Gaulle did his best to keep Britain out of any united Europe for as long as possible, bizzarely cozying up with the Germans.

I am all in favour of freedom of trade and the freedom of movement granted to European citizens, but the Common Market has given birth to a monster called the EU that bears little or no resemblance to the ideals of it's birth.

If I were a veteran of WW2 I would look in dismay at the way Germany has gained economic control of Europe and wonder if it was all really worth it. Germany runs the EU, economically and politically. To have a country like Greece forced to follow the same economic policy as Germany is madness, utter madness. It was this rigidity of fiscal policy in an area of economic and political diversity that destroyed the Irish economy. Years before the crash everyone knew the Irish economy was overheating, but because they were economically shackled to Europe that had entirely different economic pressures.

So in Essence I want freedom of trade, and Freedom of movement for European citizens, but I don't want this monster of bureaucracy, corruption, micromanagement and meddling that the EU has become.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-88_hIrLY

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1990 Landcruiser H60. Full rebuild completed 2014

Well i was undecided, but if i was going to vote (and i can if i want) i would vote out of the EU, i see no benefit for UK to stay in a failed "union"

And if the UK bails im sure others will follow & that will be the end of the EU.

Mezo.