Let's return to the original point/question in theis thread ;o)

I admit that my 2 (EU-) cents worth on the British Empire grandezza was a bit snotty. And no, most people IMO believe that the UK should stay. No BREXIT.

Why? Economic powers are changing. Compared to the USA and China any European country on its own is just a fart. We only have a fair chance if we stand up together as a group. Naturally every country is different - quite a few are economically much weaker than UK, France or Germany. So here we go and try to support them in their struggle an dhave a fair chance to survive.

Inviting countries to join the EU is unfortunately also driven by politics. So I wonder if the US hasn't exerted some kind of pressure to get Romania & Bulgaria into the club.....

__________________
Only when we pause to wonder
do we go beyond the limits of our little lives.
(Rod McKuen)

I don't recall anyone saying we needed to club together because USA is big. Yes, China is growing but it's still only the GDP of France, Germany and the UK together.

When the Europe Community changed from the EEC to the EU, Europe changed from a trading partnership to a would-be political union, driven by politicians intent on creating a federal Europe.

A federal approach probably works fine for USA and Germany where the language, laws and financial policies of the individual states within the country are pretty much aligned, but it WON'T WORK in the instance of Europe unless the whole of Europe adopts a
- common currency,
- common financial policy,
- common personal and corporate taxation,
- common pension and welfare,
- common foreign policy,
- common defence policy,
- common armed forces...
and so on.

Oh, and a common language would help.

The issue for me is not ease of trade or financial advantages, it's sovereignty. The ever-closer links within the EU coupled with the ever-expansionist policy of the EU leaders will lead to a chaos that will make the Euro crisis look like a storm in a teacup.

__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

27 sovereign states can have as many trade links as they like. One sovereign state cannot have 27 variants of basic freedoms and laws.

Frankfurt is a competitor to London. Munich to Sunderland. Highland Whisky to Bordeaux wine. You build links with your customers and suppliers not your competitors.

Andy

For the record, this is what the UK PM has on the table for negotiation.
The four key points from David Cameron's EU letter - BBC News

Some commentators have said that he may "pull a few rabbits out of the hat" also; I take this to mean that he has other, private, ideas that are subsidiary to these publicly announced concepts.

There can be little doubt that a two stage EU exists already; The countries using the Euro as their currency (the Eurozone) and the 9 remainder.

Arguably, there are even more stages to the EU with countries such as Greece in such great debt to the Euro central bank that they have given up all but a figleaf of their democracy to the "central powers" based in Brussels.
In essence, Greece is bankrupt but is kept afloat under tight control so that it can remain in the Eurozone.

__________________
Dave

We, the EU should not be keeping Greece afloat, why our hard earned cash should go to prop up another country is beyond me (yes I know we do it in Africa etc...don't agree with that either) We can not look after our own people. I had read somewhere that China was happy to bail them out but a phone call from Germany squashed it.....Thanks Merkel

There are too many countries taking more than they are contributing. Some of those countries are the ones that don't want us to implement Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits and housing until they have been resident for four years.
I wonder why that is?!

Wayne

__________________
The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

What have you got in mind?

*** big grin ***

But you're right ;o)


True, but somewhere in the future I do believe (hope) that the EU achieves a tighter network regarding their political standing towards other countries.
China's influence is growing at an alarming rate, and the other "Tiger" states are gaining momentum. Europe is definitely loosing its power to influence any global political issues.

"Oh, and a common language would help." Well, we do all speak English. Where's the problem? ;o)

__________________
Only when we pause to wonder
do we go beyond the limits of our little lives.
(Rod McKuen)

Sort out our understaffed and ailing Health Service

Sort out our defence budget and stop axing our forces

More help for the elderly and homeless

Sort out the flood defences

Recruit and train more Police, Fire and Medical services instead of cutting some of them back

Bolster the UK border force

To name but a few

But any way we are off topic

Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk while having a cold

__________________
The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

I feel that China has peaked, for now at least, and it has enough issues internally to deal with.


Hegemony


China is a block based on a wide spread revolution of the 1940s that consumed those areas involved in considerable pain and extensive loss of life.
Nowadays, it is a one party state based on absolutism of control at the highest level whereby it is possible for individuals to feel some sense of individual freedom so long as they toe the line.
5 individuals in neighbouring Hong Kong who broke these rules are currently missing, location unknown.


Russian society has only recently come out of 300 years of serfdom based on autocratic monarchy closely followed by a similar level of autocratic rule via a communist party and the associated dogma.
They are finding their feet, in summary.


The USA is based on the outcome of a relatively recent civil war from which there could be but one winner and it is now a grouping of 50 states with a federal structure to deal with international interests.


The middle east consists of autocratic rule in the main, via Kingdoms or single party military government, or it is in turmoil and potentially throwing off those nominal national borders imposed upon it post WW1.
It is highly tribal in nature.


Africa is consumed with throwing off the vestiges of earlier colonial rule; they got what they asked for post WW2 and are making something of it.
For instance, there are various regional currency and custom unions among some of the nations but no obvious appetite for closer union.


Asia. I will omit from comment on this on the grounds that there are far more independent countries there and
they are in very different levels of development.
In other words, it is best to refrain from over generalising.
The same goes for South America.


Notably, the large blocks that exist today all arrived at that state via years of immense bloodshed.


Europe.
What is one to think?

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Dave

Europe won't ever achieve any sort of geopolitical influence and it's physically impossible that it does. Each country has its interests, its international affiliations, its internation partnerships, etc, etc, which positively prevent that the EU as a whole can have any sort of geopolitical influence. Quite the opposite, in fact! And, as things go, it's loosing the little it had in the past and what is worst, the geopolitical influence of Europe in the world is smaller than the UK alone or France alone had 20 years ago. I think that the French already started seeing this and taking steps to regain back what little of what they lost they can.

The power axis of the world is moving from the Atlantic to the Pacific in large part because of Europe's actions towards itself which prevents it from having a real world influence. The EU as a whole, under influence from several countries, behaves like an old ruined lady which preaches moral standings that nobody neither cares about nor listens to. One of the itens where this matherialises is pacifism which led to an enormous reduction in military power in several countries, the UK one of them. Well, it's simply impossible to have geopolitical influence without a strong military and the declared will to use it behind diplomacy.


BINGO! It's not an option. It's either yes or yes. See what was the Europe Constitution which, after being refused by referendum in a few countries, was replaced by the Treaty of Lisbon which is the European Constitution with some minor changes. Without any referendum, of course, except the one in Ireland.


Quite true. Very, very true indeed. But then, even in continental Europe there are certain differences, very different societies in the continent which is impossible to mix.


Imagine that you are in Morocco and reach the border with Mauretania. You see that no-man's land which you know have mines here and there, you can't immediately discern what is the best route, you think about Mauretania being an islamic country, etc, etc, etc. What do you do? Go back to the safety of the known Morocco or do you move forward towards Nouadhibou?


That access to skilled or cheap labour has nothing to do with the EU. The UK can design its immigration laws in order to keep attracting those. Just like Canada or Australia do.


It's up to Her Majesty's Government to acquiesce to Brussels demands or not. Or even simply ignore them.


Who cares about Europe outside of Europe?



twowheels03, just love that article you posted. It reflects practically the views that I have on the subject being the major point of contention the view of the author regarding a future rebirth of the EEC out of the ruble of the EU's implosion where I tend to think that right now, with so much bad blood between several countries that isn't really an option anymore.

I know this is a mainly British topic, but:

- as a German I would love to see Britain staying in the EU. Britain has always been a voice of reason in a circus of 28 highly different countries. Britain is dependable. The EU would be even more of a totalitarian regime sans British influence.

- Now Britain out of the EU would give me a place to emigrate to, if things get uglier on the Old Continent ...

You guys have good reasons for both staying and leaving.

Good luck!