"The Germans"

"We're full!"

"Brick up the tunnel!"

I say, this thread has rather devolved into a Daily Mail headline generator.

I must admit I have found some of the replies rather disturbing. Considering this is a traveller forum and generally populated full of open minded, well travelled friendly folk.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Political debates irrespective of forum type are not for everyone, not all attract intelligent, factual and non-provocative contributions.

I hope this thread continues to be non-bias, balance debate with a varied opinion.


Sent from my MoJ mobile tagging device

Very true...

The general feeling from this thread has been very anti Europe. That could be for many reasons but my guess is that most of the forum members probably don't want to get involved in a Daily Mail type thread. When I originally asked the question I thought the replies would be more balanced.

However..

I've read all the replies and they have been very interesting and thought provoking. I've learnt a lot.


I'm still undecided though.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

But your poll currently has the 'NO to leave' camps in the lead.

I wonder if you are insulated to a degree by being based in the Wirral and comfortably away from the migration hotspots. London always has been a melting pot of different nationalities and cultures but it's got to the stage where white UK-born people represent less than 50% of the total population.

Some people have longer memories of what happened and there's some awkward criticisms that benefit from being aired. It is said Labour Party politicians welcomed high levels of immigration on the basis that (1) the incoming migrants were typically more likely to be natural Labour Party voters, and (2) would likely vote Labour in thanks for the opening of borders. If true, this would be gerrymandering on a grand scale. At best it was an ill-considered social engineering project to make Britain multicultural.

When the EU expanded to the east in 2004 with the accession of the 'A10 countries' Tony Blair didn't have to open the UK to the Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and other eastern Europeans. But he did and hundreds of thousands came.

They came to the UK because the Germans and others had restrictions in place for seven years—this is the origin of the proposed seven-year emergency brake for the UK. But this is all too late, I doubt we will get the seven-year brake and in any case it's locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I hasten to state I have no dislike of the Poles who I think are generally hard working and are not a burden to welfare, but it has placed increasing strain on our infrastructure—schools, hospitals, etc. But what I do find difficult to swallow is the reaction of the Polish government to suggestions from the EU that they shoulder some of the migration load. Seeing the country has been emptied by migration westwards, you would think they have space to spare, but apparently, Poles don't understand immigrants, don't want them. They fear immigrants take work away from Poles which is a bit rich when you consider what happened in the UK.

Everything I've written above has to do with migration, but I think it's too late to do much about that. As I've said before, my issue and the same for many other people is the increasing loss of sovereignty that the EU threatens.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

It's not specifically an issue of foreigners taking the work from Poles' hands. Polish society (like Hungarian, another example) doesn't deal well with foreigners. Much less with foreigners with different cultural habits. Some may call them racists and, even if it might be a strong word to accurately define them, it also might not be too far from the point.

Both Poles and Hungarians have historical traumas with foreigners which left a deep fear in their colective mind. Further, during the most part of the XX Century they were closed without much contact with the outside world, let alone foreigners residing among them. All together caused these societies to be quite unwelcome to migrants. Even for tourists, if you leave the big cities, you may end up being looked with suspicion.


It's never too late. And, what's more, I'm affraid that if it isn't dealt with now, the people will end up dealing with it later in a much worst fashion. It's already happening, anyway, but it has the potential to become much worst.

The migration theme is one which I follow since the late 1990s. Ever since I've written and said the same thing and things are occuring as expected. Back then I advocated controls to the immigration for not doing so was inviting trouble in the future. In those times it could still had been dealt without major problems. If not, then we would see the growth of anti-immigration right-wing parties in several countries, something which started precisily in the late-90s. It happened and right now several anti-immigration parties are already in government in several countries. If it isn't dealt now, next stop might quite well be fascist or neo-nazi parties and that will be worst for everybody, starting by the immigrants themselves and it is quite possible that we end up assisting to mass-deportations and citizenship deprivations, even if in breach of the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. Seeing it from society, it has always been very clear to me that it was only a matter of time before people started taking care of things by themselves. It is already happening and I'm affraid that what we are seeing these days is just the beggining.

It would had been much easier to start solving the problem 10-12 years ago. Of course it was. But back then the political correctness (the plague of modern times) fully prevented any sort of solution or even the slightest curtailment to immigration like several other countries do. Like Australia, NZ, the USA or Canada do. It was impossible to do so in Western European Countries. So problems piled up, quietly but steadily. Right now there is still much that can still be done even if not as painlessly as if something had been done years ago. However the necessary measures go against moral principles in most Western European countries so nothing is done. But yes, Tim, a lot can be done right now. And should be done! For if not, something will indeed be done in the future (it's already starting in Denmark and France) which will be much, much worst for everybody. For the migrants above the rest, the good ones along with the bad elements.

Insulated from migrants on the Wirral !!! Hahah Hilarious. I think you need re-educating about your own country. Merseyside has one of the largest migrant populations in the UK. Probably due to lower prices than elsewhere in the U.K. We have one of the largest china towns in Europe and there are more Eastern Europeans in my home city than scousers. We have more foreign accents than I can recognise. Every restaurant and bar in Liverpool is staffed by Spanish and Italians. My partner is Italian too. The difference in Merseyside is that we are friendly, tolerant and used to high immigration as we were one of the busiest ports in the world. We embrace it, welcome it and integrate. There is very little ill-feeling about migration. It makes life colourful and interesting.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

So many are concerned about Britain losing it's Sovereignty..

It's just my uneducated opinion and I've not backed it up with hours of internet research but I don't think we have had Sovereignty since WW2..

Our culture was Americanised decades ago, our Royal family is on par with Disney World. We have no colonies left, our Navy is about as threatening as pedal boat fleet and we have to pretty much import everything that we enjoy.

So what is this Sovereignty we speak about ?? What do we want to go back to ??

Do we want to go back to sitting on a wet windy concrete seaside deckchair savouring meat pies and cold mushy peas ?

Where does this idea come from that if we leave the EU we will revert back to some promised land of 'Britishness'

The EU is BROKEN !! I can't and won't argue with that. It needs dramatic reform.

But if we leave that will just leave our spineless politicians to jump into bed with someone else.

So are we to become the 51st State of the USA next or maybe a new Chinese colony ??

There have been so many comments how we will be better off out of Europe ?? So please, tell me what comes next when we leave ??? What is the future ?? How will it be better ??

I, like most people have no idea....

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

A tad ingenious reply. That's Liverpool and its chinatown you are describing. The Wirral is on the west bank of the Mersey and has highly desirable locations such as Wallasey, Heswall and Bebbington. Multi-milllion pound houses, footballers' mansions...

A bit like comparing Chelsea and Battersea.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Today's posts bring me back to a thought from page 1. The EU is a bus tour run by a committee. If you want to be in you have to live with the CAP, paying benefits to whoever, straight bananas etc. The Swiss are on a motorcycle tour, they call in the places on the bus tour they fancy and avoid the bingo and service station food.

How two faced the politicians will be reflected in their response to Dave's deal. My money is on every single one including Dave backing it. The Polish PM is the only one with the balls to tell it straight; fit in with the bus tour or go ride your bike and risk getting wet if it rains. The rest want us to pay our share even if we hate it and continue to cause strife because we don't like their plan.

Andy

I came into this thread with my own statement of “pro-Europe, anti-EU”.
Currently I think that if we do end up with a no to the exit vote then it will be “business as usual”; a vote for the status quo.
No change of any significance, carry on in the same old ways.
The current poll within here does indeed show a majority against leaving but it also shows a majority want change; that begs many questions.


There is the aspect of the challenge.
A new start; up for making our own way in the world.
Break out of the current dross of our lives, personal and/or societal and governmental, roll the dice and get on with improving Britain without always looking over our shoulders for what others lay down as the rules.
Raise our sights, have imagination, work harder, yes, but also better – more intelligently with an increased sense of “being in it together”, yep! that well worn phrase. Everyone would have to take on greater personal responsibility for their actions, their inputs, their outputs; none of this would be simple and it would take a great amount of both time and effort.
To do this would not be easy, it would need a brand new approach, across many many spheres of activity; we would have to demand that our government changes for a start, if necessary by sacking them – not easy, the way it is set up at present. For instance, the 5 year fixed term for a parliament would have to be changed back to the arrangements of earlier days so that a vote of no confidence within that house would bring about a new election more or less immediately. We have been conned by our own representatives to think that they have tenure, come what may, for a full 5 years.
Similar actions would be necessary in many other aspects, at all levels of government.
It would need a government of national unity, putting party politics on the back burner while the issues are clearly identified and dealt with; in essence the country would be on what is normally referred to as a war footing for an indeterminate length of time.
In short, nothing would be unthinkable in dealing with the best interests of the UK; for instance, a federal structure to deal with the Scots' wish to leave the UK. However, if they do so confirm that wish then so be it – there would be no point in a pressed nation continuing to drain our stamina with constant complaints. A nation that decides by referendum to check out of the EU could only agree that those who wish to leave the UK have the right to do just that.


Leadership will be needed and it may be in short supply at first, going by the standard of politicians we see at present; not many of the current crop show any real motivation beyond their own personal careers – in short, statesmanship is currently in short supply.
Those in the shadows who have capability would need to step forward, speak up and see off those they know who have been in place merely for their own selfish, self-aggrandising interests.


To do this would also show an extraordinary level of leadership to the remainder of the European nations; arguably they would draw heart from a UK decision to leave and take up their own challenges within their countries thereby building their own better futures.
We would be, should be, respected for having taken the decision and, thereby, taken the lead in a new deal for all of Europe that wishes to reform.
Necessary trade arrangements and similar technical data would flow there from.


The alternative is what?
Another round of financial crisis is on the way in any case; when we are told the story that we are a rich country it is conveniently forgotten that the whole edifice is based on a mountain of debt.

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Dave

You think the financial crisis was the fault of the EU and not a rotten, corrupt and completely unregulated and irresponsible financial industry. You really believe that the UK has been held back by its EU membership rather than an entrenched ruling class and total commitment to the failed economic model of neo-liberalism?

I wonder if you have taken in by the propaganda that we 'maxed out the nations credit card', like so many. This was nothing but a lie to bring in purely ideological attack on public services otherwise known as austerity (not for the rich though, their benefits have not been affected).

Nation States with central banking are built on debt. Money is debt. Government borrows money to spend on infrastructure and state services and gets it back through selling bonds and taxation. When the 08 crash happened the UK had relatively low debt, compared to other successful EU states.

Then Austerity was brought in and our economy has been stagnant since while the deficit (the money paid to service the debt - anyone know to whom it is paid?) has exploded. Thoroughly discredited elsewhere, Osbourne and whoever tell him what to do push it though, probably just out of pure contempt for the likes of you and I, and pretty much everyone else who isn't filthy rich.

Look at the debt of Germany, Japan or the USA, or any other G8 nation and tell me they are in credit. A mountain of national debt means nothing in a strong economy, it's a problem when the debt can't be serviced, because a sluggish economy reduces income from taxation and a tanking economy means high risk bonds thus the government has to sell them cheaper for higher rates of return. When all these things come together you end up with something like Greece, though certainly, it seems there was more to that just that.

On a side note, If we want to talk about power and sovereignty - go read about the history of central banking - especially during the formative years of the US and the Fed. States who can't control their own supply of money for the betterment of society gave up their sovereignty when they handed the supply of money over to the bankers. Lots of talk about the EU being broken but not much on fractional reserve banking and central banking and who our financial system really benefits. Wonder why?

No.

And everything else you wrote in your last post is over in this thread:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...c-crisis-59853

and has been for about the last 4 years.

As before, the alternative is what??

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Dave

Here is my guesstimate from early February this year (page 17 of this discourse):-

Since February, the Flexit campaign - the LeaveAlliance - has provided me with a feasible plan for Brexit.

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Dave

You have a unique writing style. So similar to cut & paste. I see lots of words but not too many verbs.

You say, "Sack the government".

What else?

What else do we actually do?

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Paul "Every county of England, every country of Europe and every (part of every inhabited) continent of the Earth" 94% done! What's left? Central America, East, Central and West Africa, Australia & New Zealand